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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ellie's frozen sperm

31 replies

Davros · 30/09/2020 10:54

On Victoria Darbyshire now. Sorry for title, can't think fast enough

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okeydokeywokeyblokey · 30/09/2020 12:57

I feel sorry for the mother, imagine she just wants a part of her child back but this should not happen. What if something happens to the mother and the created baby is left alone? Also disagree with surrogacy. What a minefield!

ChelseaCat · 30/09/2020 12:59

Very sad but no one has the right to grandchildren 🤷‍♀️

MojoJojo71 · 30/09/2020 13:24

I feel for her mum, she must be in a lot of pain but that doesn’t give her the right to deliberately bring a ‘grandchild’ into the world. This poor baby would be taken aware from its birth mother into a situation where it would have no parents, only a grandmother. Even if you agree with surrogacy, which I’m not sure I do, this is just wrong.

Davros · 30/09/2020 13:40

So much to question here. Why was Ellie transitioning so young? How/why did she die? What about the rights and feelings of any baby produced in this dubious way? And much more I'm sure. The poor mother of Ellie must have been to hell and back but this seems all wrong to me

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TheCraicDealer · 30/09/2020 13:55

IIRC Ellie died suddenly due to a cardiac arrest. It's a similar case in a lot of ways to Mrs M vs. HFEA which resulted in a woman (aged 60) being allowed to take her adult DD's eggs to the US for fertilization. The intention there was that the mother would carry her deceased DD's eggs once fertilized. However her DD was very clear that she wanted her eggs stored and used in the event of her death, but the forms meant to be completed confirming her wishes were not filled out. It's not known whether a baby resulted from that case.

Ellie was 16; would they even have been in a position to understand the moral or ethical implications of creating a life knowing that child will never have a family member closer than a grandparent or aunt/uncle? Yes people are raised happily by extended family all the time, but it's one thing doing it out of necessity and another to assist in conception where that's clear from the outset.

It's a very sad case, but the rights of the hypothetical child born out of this arrangement must take precedence rather than those of the deceased or their remaining relatives.

heathspeedwell · 30/09/2020 15:18

Why aren't more people exploring the possible link between Ellie's tragic death by heart attack at such a young age and the fact that this child had been on puberty blockers for (at least) two years?

Heart attacks are listed as a potential side effect of Lupron.

wellbehavedwomen · 30/09/2020 15:20

Leaving aside the trans element: my heart absolutely goes out to the poor woman. She's living every parent's nightmare. Sadly, I don't think this would be a healthy or ideal situation for any baby, though - and the issues around surrogacy also remain.

Just so painful and tragic. Whatever the outcome, I wish her as much peace and healing as is possible for any woman who loses a child that young.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/09/2020 15:32

Why aren't more people exploring the possible link between Ellie's tragic death by heart attack at such a young age and the fact that this child had been on puberty blockers for (at least) two years?

I was wondering about this too - the health impact of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones on a childs' body. As far as I can find the cause of death has not yet been ascertained? If the hormones / puberty blockers are implicated that makes a tragic death even more tragic.

DeaconBoo · 30/09/2020 16:31

This was discussed on a previous thread. Did the radio show introduce any new information (legal arguments etc?)

The ethics around a parent 'owning' their child's sperm or eggs is so fraught with problems (as RedToothBrush highlighted in the previous thread), I can't see how anyone can decide this is the right way to go.

However, it was ruled OK in California, which I am still gobsmacked about - www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-west-point-cadet-sperm-peter-zhu-20190521-story.html

"A judge has ruled that the parents of a 21-year-old West Point cadet fatally injured in a skiing accident can use his frozen sperm to produce a child. In handing down the ruling, the New York Supreme Court justice noted potential ethical considerations.

Justice John Colangelo’s ruling, dated Thursday, gives Peter Zhu’s parents the ability to attempt conception with a surrogate mother using their late son’s sperm. The judge said Zhu’s parents had not decided whether they would try to use it.

“At this time, the court will place no restrictions on the use to which Peter’s parents may ultimately put their son’s sperm,” Colangelo wrote, “including its potential use for procreative purposes.”

Zhu, of Concord, Calif., died after a ski accident in February at West Point. His parents received court permission to have his sperm retrieved and frozen at the same time he underwent organ donation surgery, but the judge waited until last week to rule on whether they could attempt reproduction. The sperm is preserved at a sperm bank.

Colangelo said he found no restrictions in state or federal law. He noted that few courts had addressed the issue of posthumous reproduction, but those who have addressed it have used the decedent’s intent as a deciding factor. He cited a 2008 case where a court ordered the destruction of a man’s sperm according to his written request during his lifetime, despite his widow’s claim to the sperm as her property.

He also cited a 1993 case where a court held that a dead man’s estate representative didn’t have the right to destroy his frozen sperm in light of his written intent that it be stored for possible future use by his longtime girlfriend.

Zhu left no written intention regarding the use of his genetic material for procreation after his death, Colangelo said. But he said Zhu’s parents testified regarding conversations where he talked of his dream of having several children and the responsibility he felt to carry on his cultural and family legacy. Zhu’s military advisor at West Point also testified that Zhu had stated, during mentoring sessions, his goal of having several children.

Monica Minzhi Yao, Zhu’s mother, said Monday the family wanted privacy and would not comment on the case. “We are extremely devastated over this freak accident,” she said. “Our pain is something that no words can describe.”

And although Colangelo left the decision of what to do with Zhu’s sperm up to his family, he noted there might be other obstacles, including the reluctance of some doctors to assist for ethical reasons.

Typically, court cases involving posthumous reproduction are filed by surviving spouses, not parents. But Zhu’s case isn’t unprecedented.

In 2007, a court in Iowa authorized recovery of a man’s sperm by his parents to donate to his fiance for future procreative use. In 2009, a Texas woman got a judge’s permission to have her 21-year-old son’s sperm extracted after his death, with the intention of hiring a surrogate mother to bear her a grandchild.

In 2018, the American Society for Reproductive Medicine issued ethical guidelines for fertility centers on posthumous collection of reproductive tissue. The organization said it’s justifiable if authorized in writing by the deceased. Otherwise, it said, programs should only consider requests from the surviving spouse or partner."

DeaconBoo · 30/09/2020 16:33

The final paragraph seems at odds with the rest.... perhaps having legal permission is different from having a fertility centre actually agree to it.

ArabellaScott · 30/09/2020 16:39

Heart attacks are listed as a potential side effect of Lupron.

This is horrific. Please someone tell me that children are not being given off label medecines that could kill them.

Dervel · 30/09/2020 16:45

I fear that may be the size of it @ArabellaScott unfortunately voicing concerns about this marks us transphobic. Those who have uncritically allowed this to come to pass have blood on their hands.

Davros · 30/09/2020 17:12

I have been wondering whether there's any connection between the puberty blocker and any other treatment and the death. The cause of death was not mentioned on VD this morning or on the BBC website. I wondered if it had been suicide but it seems unlikely there would be any vagueness about that

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LetsSplashMummy · 30/09/2020 17:21

Surely there is a difference between the general aim to have children and be a parent and consent to create children after your death. Widows have often secured consent for the actual scenario, with their husband either ill or participating in fertility treatment.

This vague "they wanted to be a parent" doesn't cover children created in their absence. It's hugely different.

ArabellaScott · 30/09/2020 17:41

All I could find was 'unascertained' as cause of death. Seems odd in a 16 year old. What a tragedy, whatever the cause.

TheGreatWave · 30/09/2020 18:17

It is very sad, but the only reason that the sperm was frozen is because Ellie had the foresight to know that one day they might want a genetic link to a child (surrogacy and eggs issues aside)

I think this is less of fulfilling Ellie's dreams and more a grief stricken mother, desperately wanting to hold onto part of her child. I feel desperately sorry for her but this is not a healthy way of dealing with grief as right in the middle will potentially be a child with a very confused sense of self.

DrDavidBanner · 30/09/2020 18:34

Hang on just a darn minute. I've been told in the strongest terms and on more than one occasion that no children undergo medical transition, and definitely nothing irreversible.

If that is the case why are they harvesting the sperm of a 14yo and how long had this child been taking homone treatment?

The whole situation is reprehensible, is the child's death linked to the medication they were on?

I can't imagine the pain the mother is going through but this is just so wrong, all of it feels wrong.

DeaconBoo · 30/09/2020 18:44

Can we not speculate about this poor child's life and death?

One article says Ellie suffered a cardiac arrest but "the cause of her death has yet to be determined after a post mortem failed to shed any light on the tragedy".

Focussing on the child's transgender identity is likely to get the thread deleted particularly if it's based in speculation about what meds they were on, cause of death etc.
Here's the previous discussion: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4020278-Dead-Trans-Girls-Sperm-Will-Be-Stored

Unfortunately the Times article share token has expired but you can read about it here www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-54103085

The ethics around bringing a parentless child into the world are discussion-worthy enough imo!

ArabellaScott · 30/09/2020 19:04

I don't know that the child's identity is the issue, is it? I'm just horrified that potentially dangerous medication is being given to healthy children.

But will refrain from speculation, sure.

CharlieParley · 30/09/2020 19:19

@ArabellaScott

Heart attacks are listed as a potential side effect of Lupron.

This is horrific. Please someone tell me that children are not being given off label medecines that could kill them.

Patient data on Lupton used for its original purpose, to treat prostate cancer, shows 1% of patients dying from heart problems caused by the drug.

Although this is a high risk, given that prostate cancer can also kill you, taking the drug to beat that makes it a justifiable risk.

It is not possible to extrapolate from that patient group to children - prostate cancer patients are of course much older than children on puberty blockers, and with more pre-existing conditions, increasing the risk of adverse side effects from taking Lupron. However, it is also not possible to dismiss the risk of fatal heart problems as seems to be happening right now, because until it is proven that the 1% who die from fatal heart problems do so because of their age, we have to assume that there is a chance 1% of child patients receiving puberty blockers will die too. As these are children for whom there is no medical indication for taking puberty blockers, that 1% represents an unacceptable risk.

ArabellaScott · 30/09/2020 19:26

Thank you, Charlie. Let's very much hope that they are safe, then. I agree that the risk of untested medecine is unacceptable.

YoBeaches · 30/09/2020 22:54

@DeaconBoo but the fact the child was transgender plays some part here as that's the reason the sperm of a 14 yr old was frozen - to enable transition through hormone treatment.

Though I wholly agree with your last statement - it's completely, morally and ethically wrong for Ellie's mum to be given rights to do this and I hope the courts agree.

We simply cannot continue to create life like it's a commodity. It really makes me feel sick in the stomach.

And questionable that the mums legal action is this - with nothing being said about the child's complex health conditions that lead to sperm freezing at 14 years old and unproven use of drugs. I understand she has suffered a huge loss but her focus is off kilter.

DeaconBoo · 30/09/2020 22:58

We simply cannot continue to create life like it's a commodity

Yes, this is the core of it.

NewlyGranny · 01/10/2020 08:04

I'm sure the reports of deceased people having said they wanted children, or lots of children, or genetic links to future children are accurate, but surely they saw themselves parenting those children!

If they had been asked whether they still wanted those potential children to be produced using gametes harvested from their dead or dying bodies and raised without them, I wonder what their responses would be?

Imagine the future child being told all about their parent and perhaps being compared unfavourably with them by an 80+ year old grandparent struggling with a stroppy teenager. Imagine starting life knowing you are only a substitute to replace a sainted dead parent protected from all criticism. It's hardly in anyone's best interest, least if all the child's. Grief can make people act in strange ways but the law should step in in cases like this.

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