Parenting advice in The Atlantic

[contactusdeletus]

Just came across this piece on The Atlantic. A single father writes in to complain that his young daughter's friends aren't allowed to come for sleepovers when she's at his. (She lives half the time with her mother, who is still part of the same circle of friends - presumably there is no issue with the other girls staying over when she's at mum's and has some female supervision.) Dad is understandably hurt by this, but can't seem to see past his own feelings of "but I'm not a threat, I'm a Good Guy!!"

What really stunned me was that the therapist - a woman - didn't respect the boundaries these other women had set at all. Their concerns for their daughters were brushed aside as insignificant, and they were painted as, basically, "reverse-sexist" bigots who were teaching their daughters to fear men for no reason. I couldn't believe it. No acknowledgement of the very real statistical risks. No invite for him to see it from their point of view, or realize it's not all about him. No attempt to find a compromise, like taking them bowling or for ice-cream, so they can build happy memories in a public space instead. Nope. Nothing. Just "you should get your ex wife to talk to these women and guilt trip them into relaxing their boundaries".

I couldn't believe what I was reading.

www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2020/09/dear-therapist-my-daughters-friends-arent-allowed-play-our-home/616484/

@contactusdeletus
he wants the validation of being able to do everything her mother can do for her, and he won't stop til he gets it

I didn't get a sense of this in his letter to the therapist. The therapist's response is another matter. All I saw in the original letter was a guy trying to come to terms with losing the people who he thought were his friends post divorce.

This is the Affirmation and Validation school of therapy. "Your feelings are the most important thing to you."

The fact that he is so desperate for sleepovers with small girls is highly weird in the first place. I don’t know many dads who are thrilled at the thought of minimal sleep if they can avoid it.
I actually find all parents slightly odd who are pressing for sleepovers all the time, unless it’s a desperate attempt to get reciprocation for some quiet time.
But it may just be the circle I move in, sleepovers aren’t particularly common, so anyone who was pushing for constant play dates at home and sleepovers would be looked at dubiously.

This is concerning to me, because I want to build memories at my house.

Whats wrong with making some memories at the park? He's been told what the issue is, and instead of changing his approach he goes running to social media.

I think most men have a normal level of self awareness to think “it’s a shame that some men have ruined what could be a nice thing, but they just want their kids to be safe, so fair enough”
My husband realises that if he walks behind a woman on the pavement, she might be a bit worried, but he doesn’t just go “well fuck that, I know I’m not going to rape her so I’ll just follow her nice and close to show her that NAMALT”. No, instead he crosses the road so as not to freak her out.

There are some people who just aren't very good at understanding when things don't seem "fair". They tend to be ridged thinkers. And it can be hard after a marriage break up to find your couple friends sort of melt away.

I am more surprised by the therapist's advice.

It’s hard to know if the father is desperate for himself or on behalf of his child. I know my children would constantly ask to have sleepovers in our home as they were more comfortable in their own home than at another persons home. His child may not understand why she can’t have friends sleep over at her house when it’s ok for the friendship group to sleep over at all their houses. How does the father explain it to his daughter? That it’s not because of her, but because she has a dad not a mum at home.

@PlanDeRaccordement

It’s hard to know if the father is desperate for himself or on behalf of his child. I know my children would constantly ask to have sleepovers in our home as they were more comfortable in their own home than at another persons home. His child may not understand why she can’t have friends sleep over at her house when it’s ok for the friendship group to sleep over at all their houses. How does the father explain it to his daughter? That it’s not because of her, but because she has a dad not a mum at home.

But the child can have sleepovers. That's what so baffling about this. The father only has her half the time. The rest of the time she's with her mother, who is still on good terms with the parents of these children. The girl can have sleepovers at Mum's, but not at Dad's.

It doesn't seem as if the child is the one pushing the issue here. The letter reads entirely as if the dad is offended that anyone would dare think he, as a man, is less trustworthy than her mother. He seems to be the one making a big deal out of the whole thing.

It does seem as if the "desperation" is all coming from Dad. There's just no need for all this hand-wringing over the issue. All he has to do is say "you can have sleepovers at mum's but not at dad's - instead we can do X fun public activity". He's the parent. It's perfectly fine to set a boundary or just say no to your child. It's not like he's denying her all fun, ever. If he's still on good terms with these other parents - as he seems to imply he is - then why not have the mums and dads round for dinner himself one evening while the girls play upstairs? They don't have to sleep over to spend time together. And maybe he'd feel less insecure in his friendships if he spent time with these couples outside of the company of his wife.

I also think it's worth considering not just the feelings of the daughter, her dad, or the other parents, but also the feelings of the other young girls involved. The letter doesn't say how old this daughter is, but the fact of the matter is that there are a lot of young girls who just wouldn't be comfortable spending the night in a strange man's house - even if she does know him vaguely as "my friend's dad".

What if she were to get her period? Would she feel comfortable going to him?

And what if he's just . . . being a man, about the house, in ways that make her uncomfortable? I used to sleep over at a friend's when I was young, but her mum started early shifts in the morning and left late, so we were quite often alone in the house with her dad. He never behaved inappropriately, but I still didn't feel comfortable in that environment as a nine year old girl. We had to tiptoe about in the mornings so that he wouldn't wake up and shout at my friend to be quiet. He would walk around shirtless or come home from the pub smelling of beer. Don't get me wrong - my own dad did all these things as well. But there was something uncomfortable about being in the house while someone else's dad behaved like this, even if it wasn't directed at you.

And needless to say, I couldn't express any of this to my friend, because that would have been insulting her dad.

In my experience you can't always trust men to be considerate of a young girl's feelings. And the writer of this letter already seems staggeringly insensitive to women's basic concerns about safety. I wouldn't trust him to alter his behaviour a jot if one of those girls did stay over.

I’m wondering if his desperation to have the little girls stay, is to prove that he’s as good as the mum and he’s hoping for full custody.

Doesn’t change the fact that he comes across as a misogynistic creep that’s outraged that the women won’t do as he demands.

"... the theory that men are more likely to be sexual predators."

What? How long since that slid from statistical fact to mere theory?

Once again wise parents, presumably of both sexes, are being shamed for good safeguarding practice.

And as far as teaching children to be mistrustful, EVEN of men they know well, yes please, bring it on. Especially of men they know well, because the reason those men are well-known may be because they have infiltrated the family to get close to potential victims. It's not likely in this case, but it is possible, and parents would be failing in their duty to ignore the possibility.

But the child can have sleepovers. That's what so baffling about this. The father only has her half the time. The rest of the time she's with her mother, who is still on good terms with the parents of these children. The girl can have sleepovers at Mum's, but not at Dad's.

I didn’t see that written anywhere. In your OP, you stated that “presumably there is no issue...” meaning you have assumed the girl can have sleepovers while staying with her mother. Objectively, we don’t know whether that is the case or not.

It’s ok to speculate, just can’t present such things as facts when they’re unknowns.

why not have the mums and dads round for dinner himself one evening while the girls play upstairs? They don't have to sleep over to spend time together. And maybe he'd feel less insecure in his friendships if he spent time with these couples outside of the company of his wife.

I agree with you on this. There has to be a level of familiarity and trust earned by the friends parent(s) before letting your child play or sleep over at that friend’s house. The father does seem to think it is his due or it should be automatic that he be trusted with other children simply because his daughter is friends with them. His letter does read very entitled to me. He’s not being treated the same as the mothers in the group and he is blaming sexism, when it’s really that he is not known well enough to be trusted.

as a misogynistic creep that’s outraged that the women won’t do as he demands.

Where's the outrage in his letter?

If he wants trust he needs to earn it.
His weird obsession isn't going to help - especially as the parents of his dd friends know they can have sleepovers at his wife's house.
Why has this man got no sympathy for the position of the other parents? He comes across as predatory.

@Gronky

as a misogynistic creep that’s outraged that the women won’t do as he demands.

Where's the outrage in his letter?

The very fact that he’s threatening to stop his daughter from having sleepovers, is hardly the sign of a happy man.

Yeah isn’t it normal for parents to get each other before sleepovers are on the table? I don’t know why the response didn’t at least put that possibility out there (that the parents might not be discriminating against him because he’s male but because he’s a relative stranger to them).

The very fact that he’s threatening to stop his daughter from having sleepovers

Where did he say that he's threatening to stop them? Has the website changed? I'm just really struggling to pair up a lot of the comments here with what I'm reading in his letter.

I think it was pretty ballsy* of the therapist to answer this letter at all, given the parents in question a) know this man and b) have some idea why his marriage broke up, and she benefits from none of that information.

• a terrible error in judgement

The article reads like an extended advice column. Random person with relationship/family problem writes in for advice and the advising therapist or Aunt Agatha person cannot respond saying you’re an idiot because then no one would write in with questions and they’d be out of a job. So the answer always has to be YANBU dear writer and it’s everyone else around you that is BU, or sexist or racist.

Where did he say that he's threatening to stop them?

"So far, I have agreed to have my daughter go to her friends’ houses when she has been invited. But I am becoming more uncomfortable with this situation."

“Gender profiling”, “gender bias” - that’s totally stretching it. It’s just the way things are. Most predators are male.

Does this man also get so annoyed about not being allowed to use Female Toilets because he’s a nice guy ?

I get the feeling that most of this is related to his ex and wanting to show he’s just as valid a parent. But the fact that’s blinding him to the feelings of his daughter’s friends’ parents is worrying. It’s not all about him - why can’t he see that? And his final sentence about stopping his daughter going to friends’ houses sounds like a form of blackmail and an attempt to make the friends’ parents conform to his wishes for validation.

I’m stunned by this woman’s advice, encouraging a man she knows nothing about to push for children to sleep at his house. Maybe as PlanDe says, they cannot respond saying you’re an idiot because then no one would write in with questions and they’d be out of a job.

If he isn’t a predator, he should at least ask himself why he longs to have a bunch of little girls sleeping at his house. I would have thought a therapist would encourage him to reflect on his own motives.

The danger here isn’t the threat you pose; it’s the effect of this gender bias on your children and you. Absolutely mind-blowing! Protecting children is dangerous because they learn who is likely to harm them?????

@Blezz

Where did he say that he's threatening to stop them?

"So far, I have agreed to have my daughter go to her friends’ houses when she has been invited. But I am becoming more uncomfortable with this situation."

Thank you, I didn't interpret that as a threat (to stop) because I took 'this situation' to mean overall rather than specifically agreeing to future visits but I can see why someone might read it that way.

If he follows her advice and goes to speak to the fathers, claiming it is gender bias that their daughters don’t go to sleepovers at his house, they are definitely going to start suspecting he’s a sex offender.