Listing a health provider as being female/make when they are TW/TM

[Kit19]

As it seems we’re not allowed to discuss specific people on this one, broadening it out

I only want intimate examinations from females and my DH only wants intimate examinations from males

I’d be pissed off in the extreme if my GP practice listed a HCP as female or male and when I arrived they turned out to not be. How does this fit with my right as a patient to have a HCP of the same sex?

The 'justified consequence of intolerance' argument bothers the shit out of me.

It's victim-blaming. I didn't choose to have C-PTSD.

Characterising women who haven't come through male sexual violence completely unscathed as 'intolerant' is punishing women for having the crime of having been abused by a man.

Handwaving our loss of medical care sends a clear message to women like me: we are permanently tainted, inferior, unworthy of basic human rights - because we were subjected to unwanted contact with penises.

They really do have an incredibly overinflated idea of the enormously transformative power of their dicks, don't they?

This happened in Poole. A woman asked for a female practitioner to do her smear, got a trans woman. Complained, got an apology.

Not many women would complain, they'd just never go back for a smear. Some of them will possibly die.

The problem is the conflict between the trans woman's rights to do the job for which she is trained and competent in, regardless of her gender identity, and the patients right to privacy and dignity.

One counts more than the other in the NHS. And everywhere else.

Related, but different - the young man with autism who was charged with a hate crime for asking a trans policeman whether they were a boy or a girl. That is a person with a disability, a protected characteristic, behaving as per someone with autism might - asking a direct question. One matters more than the other, which is why one now has a criminal record.

A male doctor extracted dc1 from his position wedged in my pelvis when forceps and pushing couldn't. He was kind, respectful, gentle but his Adam's apple viewed through my legs triggered my ptsd. I had flashbacks to being raped whilst on the operating table, lost consciousness and then had a psychotic break which the psychiatrist I ended up in front of thought was linked to the flashbacks. It took me a month to accept dc1 as a baby and six months to accept him as mine. I have no ill feeling towards him, he offered to get the female on call consultant out of bed, I declined because I was afraid for my baby. However anyone who deliberately puts their validation over the damage they could do to women like me shouldn't be allowed anywhere near vulnerable women.

Dc2 was delivered in similar circumstances by a woman. The difference was immense.

Characterising women who haven't come through male sexual violence completely unscathed as 'intolerant' is punishing women for having the crime of having been abused by a man.

This a 1000x. I think some of them see it as unforgivable that we view our experiences as "abuse" or a "crime" in the first place.

Personally, I don't generally have a problem with a male doctor. Although I appreciate that many women don't wish to be seen by a male doctor and I am 100% supportive of them being allowed to choose.

But I'd have a huge problem with a doctor misrepresenting themselves as female. How could I trust someone who is standing in front of me insisting that they are something they are not? If I am told that my doctor is female, that doctor should be female.

The NHS website says:

"Can I choose to see a male or female GP?
You can ask to see a male or female GP, as long as your surgery has both male and female GPs available.
GPs at your surgery
Most GP surgeries and health centres have male and female GPs. However, a small number of doctors work on their own. You can find out more on our GP services explainedd_ page.
If your GP surgery does have both male and female GPs, they will try their best to meet your request. However, this may not always be possible, or you may have to wait longer to see a specific GP."

If I ask to see a female GP, I mean a natal woman. That should be patently obvious.

Indeed clymene and by GP practices listing whether a HCP is male or female which they nearly all do, they know it to

This would inevitably lead to some female people no longer being willing to access essential life care.

It may also lead to some women not being allowed access to medical care.

In my little head fantasy, I'd like to imagine the day when we meet some alien civilisation, who are considerably bigger and stronger than humans, with totally different reproductive systems.

I'm sure we could get along fine, on the whole.

But how would human males feel about being told they couldn't request a human doctor for some of their more delicate procedures, because some of these aliens "identify as humans" and we don't want to hurt their feelings. (Or that they were bigots if they objected to these aliens competing in their sports...)

Males do have this immense privilege of being the physically dominant organism in society, and I'd just like to force some empathy to what it might be like if they weren't.

@caughtalightsneeze

Personally, I don't generally have a problem with a male doctor. Although I appreciate that many women don't wish to be seen by a male doctor and I am 100% supportive of them being allowed to choose.

But I'd have a huge problem with a doctor misrepresenting themselves as female. How could I trust someone who is standing in front of me insisting that they are something they are not? If I am told that my doctor is female, that doctor should be female.

Agreed, I had a wonderful male obstetrician during a difficult pregnancy, and most times I am happy to see a male GP. But, and it's a very big but there are times like a smear when I always want a woman and tbh would not go ahead with a male HCP. And times like menopause care when I would strongly prefer a woman.

I would be very disturbed by a HCP putting their need for validation above my need for a same sex HCP and about a health service provider that would go along with that.

And there are many women who for religious, trauma or privacy/dignity reasons who have a stronger need for a female HCP and our preference should always be respected. I will always say I don't mind when asked if it isn't a case where I really need a female gp so that there are appointments available with female gps for those with a greater need. That doesn't mean I don't mind in all cases and I may change what I reply to make that clearer.

The 'justified consequence of intolerance' argument bothers the shit out of me.

It should bother the shit out of any thinking, responsible person capable of understanding fairness, inclusion, empathy and basic social necessity.

If this political lobby were capable of reciprocal thinking, of extending the same care and respect to others that they demand is extended to them, if this was live and let live where individual need and interserctionality had meaning other than Big Word That Makes People Do What I Want.... there would be no problem at all.

@NecessaryScene1 I can empathise, no close encounters of the third kind required, because as a man I am also forced into uncomfortable situations. For example, if I need an ultrasound of my testicles, or have a cystoscopy, chances are it’s going to be done by a female (at least the prep, in the case of the latter). There are a lot more women in those roles, so it is what it is, but I think a not insigificant number of men are uncomfortable enough (we’re usually told to “man up”) that they don’t always get checked out when they should.

This seems to me to be a huge issue. It needs to be clarified.

differential anyone should be able to request a same sex hcp if they want one, and this should be done on the basis of understood actual biological sex, unconfused by self identification. That's the point. These are extremely sensitive issues for many, there are many reasons why same sex hcps are crucial, and gender identity needs to not try and overrule this provision for others who need it. Live and let live.

Incidentally a male friend only really started to get this when he was unexpectedly faced with a male professional rather than the female he had expected, and discovered that while he would have felt perfectly comfortable and safe allowing a female to do the procedure he was surprised at how uncomfortable and anxious he was about accepting that kind of touch and contact from another male. It was essentially a new experience of feeling sexually vulnerable in a way he hadn't experienced before, but an experience most women are very familiar with. These are sensitive issues and all people need to have their feelings equally respected in these matters.

anyone should be able to request a same sex hcp if they want one, and this should be done on the basis of understood actual biological sex, unconfused by self identification.

I completely agree.

So now Truss has clarified that: "The Equality Act 2010 clearly protects transgender people from discrimination. The same act allows service providers to restrict access to single sex spaces on the basis of biological sex if there is a clear justification."

Can women now demand that access to a female GP (or indeed any HCP) is on the basis of biological sex as there is a clear justification when it comes to intimate care or gynaecological issues?

@clymene Hard to think of a clearer justification.

Not sure how I wasn't aware of this website, but:

a-question-of-consent.net/2020/09/16/doctors/

I have a woke daughter who yelled at me the other day, saying that she wished people who weren't queer (her term) wouldn't make any comments about queer politics and what it is to be queer. I wish I'd had the time to say that I wished transwomen wouldn't make any comments on what it was like to be a woman, but there wasn't time before the door slammed

How dreadfully bigoted of her, HollowTalk, assuming the identities and sexualities of everyone who disagrees with her!

If you've got any tales of youthful experimentation, could be a handy trump card?

I have some empathy for a hypothetical well meaning trans woman GP in this situation (not talking about any specific individual). Unfortunately if a man requested a male provider and got a trans woman, I think many men would object because many men don’t think of trans women as really male (A problem that needs addressing if we are ever to resolve this mess). Meanwhile of course women have every right to expect a biologically female provider if they request a female provider.

The only workable solution would seem to be to assign the trans woman GP only to those who don’t request a provider by sex. Alternatively, radical transparency could work. If someone wants either a woman or a trans woman for their GP, it should be possible to designate that? Or would that violate privacy?

I think if a GP or HCP is shown as one sex or the other then it should be very clear that we are referring to sex, not gender.

Currently, having a male GP listed as 'female' seems to me the most egregious of gaslighting.

When a doctor's sex is listed, it's done so specifically because (some) patients want to be seen by someone of the same sex. To try and pass off 'gender' as 'sex' - in this scenario, is incredibly underhand. Because some people claim a gender that is not equivalent to their biological sex.

Not all doctors list sex, I don't think they're obliged to. So if there's sensitivity there they could just choose not to. If this is being done for the best wishes of patients, I imagine that is what would and should happen. That way, nobody who is specifically looking for a female GP risks finding their GP is in fact a male.

So the signposting of a male doctor as a female is clearly being done for the validation and consideration of the HCP, not the patient. Seems utterly clear to me.

Absolutely no problem at all with having a TW GP - all I'm interested in is that they're a good GP. But part of being a good GP is that if I or any of that GP's patients need say to them for this specific exam, for this procedure, for this particular context I need a same sex professional/chaperone, this is handled with listening and sensitivity as a professional without it being turned into a political conflict of need.

That's it. That's all. Live and let live, and respect people's beliefs and boundaries and we'll all be fine.

All of what Arabella* said