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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

India Willoughby on This Morning

44 replies

YippeeKayakOtherBuckets · 17/09/2020 10:50

Very carefully tiptoeing around the self ID issue. She’s very against it.

The tide is turning.

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YippeeKayakOtherBuckets · 17/09/2020 10:51

The caged speech and skirting around with what she’s saying is quite fascinating to watch. India knows the backlash she’s going to get.

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bonsaiii · 17/09/2020 10:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

RedDogsBeg · 17/09/2020 10:55

I thought India was always against Self-ID?

In discussions India has been involved in it is always pointed out that India has done 'all the hard work' and those that don't are somehow undermining India.

bonsaiii · 17/09/2020 10:58

@RedDogsBeg

I thought India was always against Self-ID?

In discussions India has been involved in it is always pointed out that India has done 'all the hard work' and those that don't are somehow undermining India.

Yeah, this.
YippeeKayakOtherBuckets · 17/09/2020 10:59

I think she’s right though, tbf. She’s an old school transsexual who’s made a meaningful transition. I don’t have to believe that makes her a real woman but I wouldn’t have a problem sharing space with her.

And it’s the India’s of the world who are second most harmed by all this mad self ID rhetoric. Ten years ago none of us would have batted an eye at meeting her coming out of a loo stall, well maybe a bit but we wouldn’t have perceived her as a threat.

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FloralBunting · 17/09/2020 10:59

India is only concerned, and always has been, for Indiaself.

ItsLateHumpty · 17/09/2020 11:00

As far as I’m aware the only reason IW is against self ID is because of all the feminising surgery that IW has undertaken and now believes this is a minimum requirement to womanhood.

Although I’m not sure why IW would still believe this as IW has stated they are a cis woman now so 🤷🏼‍♀️

IW is very much banging their own drum, and I’d not say they are an ally to women / upholding women’s single sex spaces.

DeliciouslyFemale · 17/09/2020 11:00

@RedDogsBeg

I thought India was always against Self-ID?

In discussions India has been involved in it is always pointed out that India has done 'all the hard work' and those that don't are somehow undermining India.

That’s exactly it. It’s got nothing to do with the harm that self Id will cause women, it’s about validation. Permitting Male bodied people who ‘self id’ into female spaces, harms Willoughby‘s self validation. Women are merely tools to be used for validation.
ItsLateHumpty · 17/09/2020 11:01

Opps sorry - what you all said while I was slooooowly typing 😂

YippeeKayakOtherBuckets · 17/09/2020 11:01

Anyway I was more fascinated by the tiptoe tiptoe way she was saying it. The terror of saying something verboten.

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DeliciouslyFemale · 17/09/2020 11:02

bonsaiii, I’ve sent you a pm.

NiceGerbil · 17/09/2020 11:02

The TRAs have really fucked things up for the old school transsexuals.

Of course if they complain too loudly they are 'cancelled' due to trans hatred even though they're trans.

DeliciouslyFemale · 17/09/2020 11:02

Love the fact that all of us recognise why IW is so against self I’d. 😁

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/09/2020 11:05

That’s exactly it. It’s got nothing to do with the harm that self Id will cause women, it’s about validation. Permitting Male bodied people who ‘self id’ into female spaces, harms Willoughby‘s self validation. Women are merely tools to be used for validation.

YY. IW is not an ally to women.

heathspeedwell · 17/09/2020 11:06

I don't trust India one little bit after all the intellectually dishonest things India said about Rowling a while ago.

India's not entirely daft, so I think India deliberately misrepresented what Rowling was saying, while making a big show of appearing to be reasonable.

NotBadConsidering · 17/09/2020 11:09

I’m pretty sure India said something positive in reply to JK Rowling before deleting it quickly.

Barracker · 17/09/2020 11:09

Willoughby is the opposite sex to me and my daughter, but expects me to ignore that rather important fact, because Willoughby is much more special than every other member of Willoughby's sex class.

I disagree with Willoughby, and intend to assert my own sex based rights and boundaries against all members of the opposite sex class, of which Willoughby is but one solitary example.

Willoughby doesn't get to override my right to say no to every member of Willoughby's sex class. Willoughby doesn't get to decide who I'm permitted to exclude and who I'm not.

frogswimming · 17/09/2020 11:10

Vanessa feltz was all for self Id because of the feelz of the trans. Even as India pointed out a massive flaw of men with no physical changes at all saying they feel like a woman and going in the ladies. I was surprised as I would have thought Vanessa had a bit more intelligence than that, she usually makes reasoned arguments about things.

I actually agree with iw up to a point, I don't believe iw is biologically a woman now. But at the same time I wouldn't feel threatened if iw was in the ladies. Would iw believe it was ok for an old school transexual to participate in women's sport?

I also think that iw view probably ties in with the majority of the public. As it is along the lines of people being able to do, act, wear what they want themselves, but not affecting anyone else negatively.

Winesalot · 17/09/2020 11:22

Would iw believe it was ok for an old school transexual to participate in women's sport?

India does not think that it is ok. They debated this with Piers Morgan and the Phd researcher Harper earlier this year.

India has proven in the past that they are not really for supporting females in the erosion of boundaries of their rights, because India seems to truly believe that they are female and have used the term c*s female before.

picklemewalnuts · 17/09/2020 11:24

If I were in the ladies with IW, and were a stranger, I probably wouldn't feel worried. I'm assuming I know India's public persona in order to say that. If Our association were closer, I would be less comfortable as I have seen India's finger shaking and shouting at people who disagree.

Redshoeblueshoe · 17/09/2020 11:30

I only know IW from television, and the aggression shown when they were on BB is why they should not be in women's toilets.

ThousandsAreSailing · 17/09/2020 11:35

IW is no friend to women. Didn't you see IW screaming at women in the BB house?
IW has never agreed with self ID but that only some men, those with surgery I guess, are actually women
I would not feel that women's needs were being represented if IW took a woman's place on a board

MichelleofzeResistance · 17/09/2020 11:55

I don't necessarily agree with but do have sympathy with IW and with those who would term themselves as the 'old school transsexuals'. When it was simply a case of a very small number of the population who were for the most part gay males and had made a full physical transition, there were all the same issues for female people including major ethical ones, but the impact was small enough and quiet enough in approach to female people that they were for the most part able to have that use of female spaces. For a time it more or less worked if you didn't look too closely at the issues.

This ship has sailed due to the political lobby. IW like Debbie Hayton, would like access to women's spaces restricted only to males who have made enough of a transition - Willoughby has explained in interviews, Willoughby doesn't want to use mixed sex spaces or to share with those Willoughby themselves perceives as males. To them it is about protecting the full sense of transition and entry to women's spaces for themselves, so they can feel themselves as a woman amongst women. However from the female perspective, as the quiet bits got very loud indeed and it became obvious that the slightly opened door of any male permitted at all was going to be forced to its widest extent of all males wishing to feel themselves as a woman among women regardless of motive being admitted, with a side order of gleeful enjoyment in silencing, oppressing and excluding non compliant women, and a whole lot of 'there's no such thing as sex but a woman can have a penis' and how impossible it will be to have any boundaries at all.... it's shifted to the only possible line being no male people at all, ever, regardless of circumstance.

Third spaces are the only remaining solution. IW doesn't want third spaces, for the same reason that a self identified male with a beard who is gender fluid doesn't want third spaces: the presence of women in those spaces to be among them is essential for feeling validated. However the real need for safety, privacy, dignity, respect for chosen TW identity, has to be separated from any male person using female people, many of whom don't consent, because it validates them. Which means not equally respecting female people's safety, privacy, dignity and respect for their identity, plus excluding those females who can't do it from having any space at all, for the better happiness and sense of self of a male. That's the bit that is unacceptable.

Sadly, to IW and many others, that's the bit that is really painful.

MillyMollyFarmer · 17/09/2020 12:04

India only cares about India. The way they behaved on CBB pointing their finger at the women, many older women, yelling: ‘ I am a woman! Let that penetrate!’, as well as repeatedly massaging lotion into their breasts in front of the women makes me very sure that I do not want to share a changing room with them or listen to a single lie they say.

happydappy2 · 17/09/2020 12:11

I feel deep sympathy for any man who has undergone 'gender reassignment surgery' and incorrectly been told that they can now use womens sex segregated spaces. Whichever male Dr/psychiatrist/politician told them they could use womens spaces was giving away something that wasn't theirs to give.
I hope in the future better alternative treatment is available for people with gender dysphoria as the current system is not sustainable.