Thank you stonewall - now I know who to avoid

[Kit19]

136 businesses come together to support corporateWall sorry stonewall on trans ‘rights’

Like everyone on fwr I fully agree trans rights are human rights but what they are not is women’s rights. They are reserved for biological women

Also they must be rattled if they’ve got the city bods on their board to do a ring/email round to do a show of support

Sorry that last post was in reply to @NiceGerbil

@OldCrone

Are you saying here that you think you 'pass' as a woman, or that you were harassed because you were perceived as an effeminate male (like the queerbashing you talked about earlier)?

I think that's an interesting and complex question because a lot of transphobia is interlinked with homophobia (one reason why the LGB and the T are historically linked). Bender (meaning gender bender) was synonymous with poof at my school so it's clear I think that often the two things come from the same place. But I also think there is a more intellectualised transphobia very prevalent in society right now which manifests as transphobic conspiracy theories which are also harmful.

But I wasn't talking about transphobia but male sexual violence. The times I've been groped in clubs I think I was probably seen as a woman or a trans woman but the men who did it were straight. I think the man who tried to rape me probably saw me as an effeminate male, as did the man who flashed at me and followed me home from the men's toilets when I was 14. But in both those cases I don't think the men who did that would have done it if I hadn't been quite feminine presenting so gender plays a role in a way. I've certainly been sexually harassed on the basis of being a seen as a woman online, depite always being clear in dating profiles and things that I'm trans, but I think some men just look at the pictures. I actually think being trans, or a gender nonconforming male draws in a certain kind of abuser, who see us either as sexually louche exotics or sort of subwomen to whom the normal rules dont apply. Much the same way some men view sex workers. So obviously there is a wide range of experiences and reasons for this, but I think my experience of male sexual violence and harassment is probably closer to someone born physically female then it is someone born physically male.

but I think my experience of male sexual violence and harassment is probably closer to someone born physically female then it is someone born physically male.

Eh? You are born physically male. Therefore yours is an actual physically male experience. It actually cannot be more similar than the thing it actually is.

@Escapeplanning

but I think my experience of male sexual violence and harassment is probably closer to someone born physically female then it is someone born physically male.

Eh? You are born physically male. Therefore yours is an actual physically male experience. It actually cannot be more similar than the thing it actually is.

Well it's certainly similar in how it has manifested in my life, being nervous about geting an uber alone for example, or where I walk at night, and watching my drinks. Gender conforming men don't worry about that stuff at all. So yes, I guess it happened to a male body which makes it experientially different put really I'm not convinced the experience of a man sticking his hand up your skirt and groping your behind is massively different dependent on what sex you were born.

Men experience an enormous amount of violence from each other. Unprovoked attacks are a massive risk for all men.

Gay, straight or trans attracted men will sexually harrass people they are sexually attracted to.

But I also think there is a more intellectualised transphobia very prevalent in society right now which manifests as transphobic conspiracy theories which are also harmful.

In what sense? I don't follow. Could you elaborate?

@Escapeplanning

Men experience an enormous amount of violence from each other. Unprovoked attacks are a massive risk for all men.

Gay, straight or trans attracted men will sexually harrass people they are sexually attracted to.

I know, I've got the scars. But men are not generally sexually violent towards each other in the way some of them are towards women (including trans women).

And there is more shared ground between straight and trans attracted than you might think. Most 'chasers' (men who actively seek out trans women, or more often transvestites and crossdressers - because they want someone with a functional cock - as sexual partners) are married, quite happily straight and their wife has no idea that they spend their spare time going to sex clubs and having often unprotected sex with multiple partners. Men lie about their sexuality to women including the women they are in sexual relationships with. Men send trans women messages on dating sites and within a few lines ask 'r u discreet' or if they are a bit braver woo us by telling us they don't mind being seen in public with us, the charmers. Men are awful.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

But I also think there is a more intellectualised transphobia very prevalent in society right now which manifests as transphobic conspiracy theories which are also harmful.

In what sense? I don't follow. Could you elaborate?

Perhaps for another thread, or another time because I have to go out now. But as some examples, the batshit transinvestigations websites that accuse everyone from Michelle Obama to Kiera Knightly of being secretly trans, the idea that trans rights are a Soros funded trans-humanist plot, the idea that things like BLM are a secret front for trans rights and seek to destroy society, or that trans rights are a front for paedophiles or the idea that there is any secret organised trans plot at all to be honest. They all feed into a narrative that contributes towards actual violence towards trans and gender nonconforming people in everyday life.

Bender (meaning gender bender) was synonymous with poof at my school so it's clear I think that often the two things come from the same place.

I don't think that's where the term 'bender' came from. I think it came from 'bent' meaning gay. So a 'bender' was a person who was 'bent', and would be used as a term of abuse in the same way as 'poof'. So nothing to do with gender bending which was about not conforming to gender stereotypes rather than sexuality.

But an effeminate man might be perceived as gay by others. So much of what is called 'transphobia' is actually homophobia, and it does come from the same place - men being uncomfortable with other men who they perceive as not 'manly' enough.

Women weren't supposed to be pilots or engineers, or men primary school teachers or beauticians, because of their gender, not their physical sex.

In which case, if they had said their gender was male, presumably they would have been welcomed with open arms. But they weren't.

They still aren't. Transmen, i.e. women who identify as men, are famous for giving birth. Their gender, i.e. the tool used to oppress them, hasn't changed, any more than their sex has.

Women are oppressed on the basis of their sex, and gender is the means by which it's done.

I actually think being trans, or a gender nonconforming male draws in a certain kind of abuser, who see us either as sexually louche exotics or sort of subwomen to whom the normal rules dont apply. Much the same way some men view sex workers. So obviously there is a wide range of experiences and reasons for this, but I think my experience of male sexual violence and harassment is probably closer to someone born physically female then it is someone born physically male.

You've just said that the reason for you being a target is because you are viewed as a male, followed by 'and that's why it's more like being viewed as a female'.

FGS, my law firm has signed up

Jj

Yous sound a bit confused, to be honest.

But mixing up whether or not Keira Knightley is really a man, with the well documented strategy of paedophile infiltration and the publicised tactics of organisations like TELI, not to mention the leaked documents from Dentons, just makes you look disingenuous.

@TheWayOfTheWorld

FGS, my law firm has signed up

Law firm do it purely for PR nothing less. The might be interested because it’s an intellectual exercise (and there could be money in it).

A friend works for one and said that they would be backing a campaign for ‘drowning puppies’ if they thought it would bring in business.

But there was an "organised trans plot", to use your words, not mine, in terms of a strategic activist agenda. People have written books about it.

But mixing up whether or not Keira Knightley is really a man, with the well documented strategy of paedophile infiltration and the publicised tactics of organisations like TELI, not to mention the leaked documents from Dentons, just makes you look disingenuous.

YY.

Hhm, @SerenityNowwwww I've just gone on our intranet (general and the D&I page) plus our twitter and there is nothing about the firm signing up to this. They normally shout this sort of stuff from the rooftops.

So much of what is called 'transphobia' is actually homophobia, and it does come from the same place - men being uncomfortable with other men who they perceive as not 'manly' enough

I agree, and its very striking that so few men feel able to challenge gender stereotypes.

It's completely socially acceptable and mainstream for a woman to wear men's clothes, whether they are following a recognised fashion trend like 'boyfriend jeans' or just find the men's section more comfortable. However, the opposite is not true.

@TheWayOfTheWorld

Hhm, *@SerenityNowwwww* I've just gone on our intranet (general and the D&I page) plus our twitter and there is nothing about the firm signing up to this. They normally shout this sort of stuff from the rooftops.

I seem to remember something about the names on the lists not being sponsors per se - maybe given a donation or something?

@merrymouse

So much of what is called 'transphobia' is actually homophobia, and it does come from the same place - men being uncomfortable with other men who they perceive as not 'manly' enough

I agree, and its very striking that so few men feel able to challenge gender stereotypes.

It's completely socially acceptable and mainstream for a woman to wear men's clothes, whether they are following a recognised fashion trend like 'boyfriend jeans' or just find the men's section more comfortable. However, the opposite is not true.

Sexism innit.

Women imitating men is punching up. Men imitating women is punching down.

@Datun

Jj

Yous sound a bit confused, to be honest.

But mixing up whether or not Keira Knightley is really a man, with the well documented strategy of paedophile infiltration and the publicised tactics of organisations like TELI, not to mention the leaked documents from Dentons, just makes you look disingenuous.

Yes there are lobbyists, of course there are. There are LGB lobbyists, feminist lobbyists, and in fact lobbyists for almost everything under the sun. That is not a conspiracy, it's just the way the world works, but conspiracy theories would claim it is evidence of a gay mafia or feminist conspiracy by doing exactly what i've seen the GC movement do, quoting an obscure report, an out of context quote from a high profile person there,, a few grand being chucked out by a charitable trust to someone and then uses this 'join the dots' way of thinking portray an organised sinister horror show when actually if you break it down they are just a bunch of mundane and loosely connected events. Read Icke if you don't believe me.

So the Denton's report, big deal. It's one report out of probably thousands released on the subject of trans rights over the decades. yes they may have advised working under the radar, but this is not uncommon, it's well known in the sector that anti-poverty charities for example will often try keep lobbying activity a bit quiet because everyone's terrified of the Daily Mail pouncing on something and destroying it. It's mundane, normal, one report probably barely anyone ever read until it was circulated by GC sources.

The idea that a handful of trans activists and tiny organisations could have successfully secretly plotted to instil a global consensus on trans rights is pretty far out. What I would say happened was society's values shifted, being LGB and by extention trans or gender nonconforming was no longer seen as taboo, people got to know trans people as they emerged from the shadows, a few celebs emerged and gradually at different times in different parts of the world trans people became more accepted and the lobbyists as a result of this had some of their aims met. No conspiracy, no secret agenda, just the world changing, slowly, bit by bit, as it always has.

No conspiracy, no secret agenda, just the world changing, slowly, bit by bit, as it always has.

With predatory men at the helm and the 'cool women' at their side throwing the rest of us to the wolves at it has always been.

@OldCrone

Bender (meaning gender bender) was synonymous with poof at my school so it's clear I think that often the two things come from the same place.

I don't think that's where the term 'bender' came from. I think it came from 'bent' meaning gay. So a 'bender' was a person who was 'bent', and would be used as a term of abuse in the same way as 'poof'. So nothing to do with gender bending which was about not conforming to gender stereotypes rather than sexuality.

But an effeminate man might be perceived as gay by others. So much of what is called 'transphobia' is actually homophobia, and it does come from the same place - men being uncomfortable with other men who they perceive as not 'manly' enough.

I'm pretty sure bent came from bender which came from gender bender. The Sun was always calling LGB people gender benders in the early 80s. I think sexuality has managed to wrestle itself away from gender in recent years but a lot of early homophobia came from the same place as transphobia, it was seen as an affront to conventional masculinity to dress or present in a feminine way and it was also considered an affront to masculinity for a man to have sex with another man. Gay men were not considered 'proper' men, as Arnold Schwarzenegger said, gay men were 'girlie men'. It was not uncommon at my school for feminine boys and masculine girls to be misgendered, with male pronouns used for girls bullied for being 'lemons' or lesbians, and female pronouns used for boys considered not sufficiently masculine. And it wasn't just boys doing it, there was plenty of homophobic and gender based bullying that came from girls as well so it's not just about men being uncomfortable about other men they didn't perceive as manly.

I agree it's not a 'conspiracy' in the way you imply. It's just misogyny which is old as time. Ignoring women and not giving us a seat at the table as the world is changing is also nothing new.

for example will often try keep lobbying activity a bit quiet because everyone's terrified of the Daily Mail pouncing on something and destroying it.

That's not really why trans activists didn't want the public to know. They operate under an assumption that if there is too much discussion of what is actually at stake, people will not be impressed. That is completely the reason for #nodebate.

I'm not calling it a conspiracy. It's a concerted effort to remove women's sex based rights. With very many groups having a vested interest in the outcome. For various reasons.

The staggering amount of info isn't really refutable by attempts to minimise it, to be honest.

And bender meant bent, as in slang for gay. As any teen who ordered a Wimpy bender, circa 1974, will tell you.

I would've thought it obvious bent means gay because it's the opposite of straight.