New Zealand Government Dept Pronoun Document

[MillyMollyFarmer]

These islands have been so captured, all the way to the top.
For some time those working in government departments have been encouraged to sign emails with pronouns, this document explains the terms and reasons, as well as stating how to complain if anyone comments on your pronoun use.

A member of my family is in government and doesn’t use them nor wants to, but if everyone else is and the explanation or guide states things like ‘c*s’ as factual, it would be hard not to go along with this, right? If this comes right from the top how could you resist it?

It also states why it’s beneficial:

When cisgender people include pronouns, it normalises it for everyone and protects trans and gender diverse people when they include their pronouns.
Having pronouns in an email signature signals you as an LGBTQIA+ ally.

www.publicservice.govt.nz/our-work/diversity-and-inclusion/pronoun-use-in-email-signatures

MNHQ I used the banned c word as otherwise the document won’t make sense, please edit rather than delete.

This is compelled speech. The implication of not including these pronouns is to be identified as a 'non ally.' In these circumstances, I imagine the majority of people will comply. Because the price of resistance is potentially career damaging.

My view is that is no change without change if that makes sense. I feel that so long as this is voluntary then there are benefits. I personally feel that it is up to an individual person if they want to do this or not and also that this is a good move forward to educate people on differences within society and to be more accepting of variance.

I work for a central govt department in NZ, and have been in various agencies over the years. I’ve only seen maybe one or two people add it to their email signature. This is not widespread at all.

It's all a one way street isn't it?
With a side helping of emotional blackmail.

Islandblue before you say that, you need to examine whether it’s damaging. It turns out that women who remind people they are women are indeed perceived less favourably at work, so it is damaging. At work I have long gone by Initial Surname in situations where a little obscurity about my sex was beneficial and where people didn’t need to know. Pronouns remove that and force people to notice that someone is female, and lo and behold she then gets paid less etc etc.

So it’s not a neutral kind act: it’s damaging.

@WorkingItOutAsIGo that's a good angle and you could be very right actually. It's a bit like adding your date of birth to your CV...

I feel that so long as this is voluntary

Does the OP's description suggest that this is 'voluntary?' Voluntary means optional, it means uncoerced. Does this instruction by the government employer to visibly display pronouns sound uncoerced?

@Islandblue

My view is that is no change without change if that makes sense. I feel that so long as this is voluntary then there are benefits. I personally feel that it is up to an individual person if they want to do this or not and also that this is a good move forward to educate people on differences within society and to be more accepting of variance.

I imagine there are more effective ways to educate people about differences in society than compelling them to use specific words when talking about people in their absence.

Once again everybody gets to choose how they are described. Everybody, that is, except for 'cisgender' people - they get told what they are by the special people and have to lump it.

From the in meetings section:
Don’t use the term ‘preferred’ or ‘gender’ pronouns - although people often mean well when they use these terms it can imply that pronoun selection is a preference rather than a requirement and using ‘gender’ can ignore agender people.

...pronoun selection is a preference rather than a requirement...

Though:

In your email signature, add your pronouns (she/he/they/ze/etc) after your name.
So just stick 'etc' after your name

Islandblue

If this was about educating people on differences, the document would read very differently and not state things as factual, but as beliefs of some people. People believe all sorts of things in society, but only this ideology gets a document explaining their words and beliefs and encourages others to engage in someone else’s beliefs by using their terminology that is not widely in use yet. It goes beyond encouraging where it says you will be an ally if you do this, the implication being you’re not if you don’t.

As I say someone I know high up in government doesn’t want to use them and is so far ignoring them, but they are uncomfortable about it. Why should they feel this way at their place of work simply because they do not want to go along with someone else’s beliefs. Bearing in mind people complain they have to use Māori or sing farewells to colleagues in Māori, with absolutely no pushback or document declaring that is not ok at work.

@BowlerHatPowerHat

From the in meetings section: Don’t use the term ‘preferred’ or ‘gender’ pronouns - although people often mean well when they use these terms it can imply that pronoun selection is a preference rather than a requirement and using ‘gender’ can ignore agender people.

...pronoun selection is a preference rather than a requirement...

Though:

In your email signature, add your pronouns (she/he/they/ze/etc) after your name.
So just stick 'etc' after your name

At an LGBTQ+ conference I attended last year, each delegate was asked to introduce themselves to the others on their table, say a fact about themselves and say what their pronouns were.

I just said my name, that I’m a gender-critical feminist, and that I didn’t care what pronouns people used to talk about me in my absence

Bearing in mind people complain they have to use Māori or sing farewells to colleagues in Māori, with absolutely no pushback or document declaring that is not ok at work.

so are you saying that people are less happy to accommodate the ancient traditions and culture of the indigenous people of the islands than change their daily language and way of referring to people - in the name of accommodating people's differences.....

I visited NZ a couple of time and found it to be lovely but this is so sad - so much for a female Prime Minister being good for women.

Also I’d like to reiterate something I’ve said on these boards before.... the NZ government, both current and all previous, will not add Te Reo Maori to the curriculum as a core subject alongside English maths etc because they do not want to force the language. Their words. Making it compulsory is not the way forward, apparently.

It breaks the treaty agreement not to protect and preserve the language.

Just think about that.

The indigenous language, an official language, which was once banned from teaching, is not acceptable to be taught at a basic level alongside English, but the government have a document on pronouns and what they mean and encourage all staff to use it.

Staff are not requested or encouraged to speak or learn Maori. They use words here and there on email templates but staff regularly misuse as they don’t understand the language. But hey.... let’s all learn what agender means instead....

gardenbird48 Yes that’s what I’m saying. That is the experience of Māori I know in government, and it’s the experience of myself and others in everyday life. People complain we haka too much while happily wearing pronoun badges every day

We have this at work. It was emailed out that everyone has to have them. I stated "I don't feel comfortable announcing my pronouns to everyone. I got some quizzical looks but nothing else said.

obligatory pasting of link to fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

it is not OK to compel people to use pronouns

@MillyMollyFarmer I think the wonderful Maori language is your best defence here. I’m no speaker but my understanding is the useful word ia means he and she and him and her. So I would choose ia as the preferred pronoun. And then (provocatively) ask why others were not doing the same.

The indigenous language, an official language, which was once banned from teaching, is not acceptable to be taught at a basic level alongside English, but the government have a document on pronouns and what they mean and encourage all staff to use it

That speaks volumes. It is quite incredible. One thing which it highlights is the power and influence of the pronoun lobby. There is such a stark difference in the way in which the Maori language is treated. Your juxtaposition eloquently illustrates that.

@ramblingsonthego

We have this at work. It was emailed out that everyone has to have them. I stated "I don't feel comfortable announcing my pronouns to everyone. I got some quizzical looks but nothing else said.

That’s against the Yogyakarta Principles, which state that nobody should be forced to declare their gender.

Most of the Yogyakarta Principles are woke bollocks but in a case like this, they’re a useful weapon.

Having pronouns in an email signature signals you as an LGBTQIA+ ally

Not an L ally it doesn’t. This lesbian finds pronouns in signatures a useful indicator of who to be wary of.

SorryAuntLydia

Yes that might be a good point. Although it would be seen as going along with this, which the person I know doesn’t want to do. They feel it unnecessary to put pronouns on emails. They’ve included modern Māori terms and words and traditional that are being used differently than I used them growing up.

i.stuff.co.nz/national/education/110801962/the-personal-pronouns-in-te-reo-mori

I agree @Kit19

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

No one should be forced to use

The reality is, even though not made compulsory yet, if everyone else does it, it becomes a ‘thing’ when you don’t. Same goes for the oversharing at work in general. My friend didn’t want to take part in a couple of things and it turned into a big deal. One was the Monday morning meetings with a catch up on your personal life that goes around the table- that’s Facebook creeping into the workplace. And the other was watching rugby, persistently asked ‘why not, why not, join in with the team we’re all off work....’ blah blah and when they said the reason, there are men who beat women in that team, they’re given a hard time. So although it doesn’t state it’s compulsory, they’re creating an environment where it’s expected or you’re made to feel uncomfortable or potentially bullied into it.

"In order to be an ally to those grappling with their gender identity, and who don't yet feel confident enough to declare pronouns, I am showing solidarity by not declaring any pronouns. This helps to create a safe space where people don't feel pressured to declare a gender identity. I won't take offence to whichever pronouns you feel you wish to use in referring to me"

The above was on a thread a week or two back and I thought it was a great way of saying 'thanks, but no thanks'

Thank god I am self employed.