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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'We should have the right not to like men': the French writer at centre of literary storm

59 replies

xxyzz · 10/09/2020 15:10

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/10/french-writer-book-pauline-harmange-i-hate-men-interview

Quelle surprise!

OP posts:
lazylinguist · 13/09/2020 17:13

I'd say our society is going too far the other way though. Look how many people lose their jobs through speaking out about genuine concerns and being called bigots etc.

I'm talking about individual men not tolerating or colluding with misogynist behaviour or talk among their friends, colleagues and male relatives. Not witch hunts where people lose their jobs for telling the truth or speaking out about concerns.

The frequency with which women still experience sexism and misogyny from men in their daily lives should make it very clear that your kind of "It's PC gorn mad, I tell you!" reaction is either woefully ignorant, naïve or disingenuous.

BigFatLiar · 13/09/2020 17:19

I don't see the problem, she's allowed to not like/trust men if she wants, perhaps best not to voice it too loudly. My DH doesn't trust women in general (other than family and a few friends), he doesn't make a song and dance about it he just goes about his life and limits contact.

Dervel · 13/09/2020 17:23

@DiggerDave given how widespread rape, sexual violence, and domestic violence are I can well imagine where books and articles that have such provocative titles come from. They have a cathartic value for women who have been brutalised and for those who are justifiably angry about the status quo. They have value for that reason alone, as it creates a space for women to discuss and articulate the problem.

I am a man and have been reading and posting here for many years, and I have not once been made to feel personally responsible or attacked for the violence other men commit towards women. What is going on here isn’t actually the attack on men your are perceiving it as, it is something called class analysis. Which is simply an examination of patterns across groups of people. It’s pretty much inescapable that most violence is perpetrated by men so it therefore logically follows that it is worthwhile examining that group.

It is obviously an emotive and extremely depressing subject, but if I were you I would resist the urge to wade in with whattaboutery. Yes we men are violent towards one another, and yes things like male suicide are a big problem, and thus deserve their own discussions. It actually does both the topics a disservice to try to shoehorn them into a discussion about Male violence towards women rather than giving them the due attention they deserve in their own discussions. If you are really interested in contributing, and I hope that you are I’d spend some time here reading a bit before jumping in (there are a lot of very intelligent and articulate posters here!), but realise you are entering into a female space where a lot of women have experiences of being talked down to, ignored, told to calm down and just generally patronised by men. I’m afraid that’s just the landscape and whilst it’s not yours or even my fault specifically that’s just the landscape we have to contend with.

Feminism itself is a massive subject with whole doctorates worth of thought, analysis, data and research. Newsflash: there isn’t necessarily one feminist position on any given issue feminists can and often do disagree, it’s an incredibly broad church. It sounds very much like you have had a very reductionist experience of feminism, which isn’t necessarily reflective of the reality. Most feminists I know wouldn’t dream of looking down on your wife for example, in fact a lot would seek to support her in the choices she makes, whilst ensuring society itself is structured in such a way to mitigate the risks she is taking by being quite so reliant on your income. It sounds very much like you love your wife, and would support any career aspirations she might express. That sort of attitude puts you ahead of the game in some areas.

DeliciouslyFemale · 13/09/2020 17:25

Don’t worry. Digger Dave is a pbp, so he’ll be getting his arse kicked as we speak. Thanks MNHQ

nibdedibble · 14/09/2020 09:40

@MichelleofzeResistance

It's another example of most men being so totally unaware and oblivious to the realities of living inside a female body that they just blindly project their own experience of the world onto women and shrug and say "well it's the same for me, so I don't know what you're fussing about".

Again the gift of male socialisation: if it doesn't affect you personally, you don't have to think about it or notice it or do anything about it.

The gift of female socialisation: to have to think about and notice everyone for everything and prove you've thought of men/children first, before you're allowed to try to explain the reality of the other 50% of the human race. To the male half, who mostly shrug and say "well that's never affected me, so it doesn't happen."

Terra nullis. Women are just a blank space men project all over and define according to their own perceptions, and mostly aren't even aware they're doing it because it's so normal.

Oh god I can’t tell you how much I agree with this.

I just want to live free of this. Not that women are magically fabulous, but just because I’ve absolutely reached my limit. And that’s without having experienced rape, assault, overt abuse... I’ve just lived with the comfortable obliviousness of well-meaning men for far too long.

ALLIS0N · 14/09/2020 09:46

@CardsforKittens

I don’t hate men. I just haven’t encountered very many who are worth my time or attention. I don’t generally bother talking to them unless I’m being paid to, because so few of them seem to be prepared to listen to women. I think I need to read this book Grin.
This
sawdustformypony · 14/09/2020 19:57

@CardsforKittens

I don’t hate men. I just haven’t encountered very many who are worth my time or attention. I don’t generally bother talking to them unless I’m being paid to, because so few of them seem to be prepared to listen to women. I think I need to read this book Grin.
Ho-ho very funny. Lost on most here, I'd have thought.
jajajao · 14/09/2020 20:19

Hate sells and gets clicks in today's 'attention economy'.

CardsforKittens · 17/09/2020 08:03

Ho-ho very funny. Lost on most here, I'd have thought.

Lost on me too Blush - sorry, I can’t work out what you mean.
I wasn’t trying to hint at anything. I just meant that I talk to men when I’m at work because I have to if I want to keep my job. If I could get away with only talking to women I’d quite like that.

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