'We should have the right not to like men': the French writer at centre of literary storm

[xxyzz]

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/10/french-writer-book-pauline-harmange-i-hate-men-interview

Quelle surprise!

@DiggerDave

Who is inflicting the violence on men? You might want to think about that.

I don't understand what you mean. When Geroge Floyd was killed I didn't say "oh well it's ok because he was a man too". The victim isn't responsible for his attackers behaviour surely?

Do you seriously need it spelled out to you? Men suffer more violence at the hands of other men. Women suffer violence at the hands of men. Women are much much less likely to kill or maim men. Common denominator? Men!

To state that you wouldn’t be permitted to say it about an ethnic group is true, because it’s not the whole ethnic group that is inflicting violence, sexual harassment, rape, financial and emotional abuse on women, it’s the men within those ethnic groups, including every single religion. Join the dotes. Women have every right to be pissed if at men. Even those that consider themselves good men, often stand by when they know one of their group, relatives, workmates, etc is behaving badly towards women. Even when they see it with their own eyes. Bad men get to continue being bad, because ‘good’ men ignore their behaviour.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”― Edmund Burke

Excuse my spellcheck errors

'I'm sometimes scared that other men will be violent to me. That's why it's totally wrong for women to use words about men that hurt my feelings.'

The fact is that male violence towards women runs the gamut of porn and prostitution through to murder, via all the abuses that daily make women question any choice she has to make (if I go this way at this time am I more, or less, likely to be attacked? Etc). It affects almost every interaction with a man on some level. It affects what we choose to do, how we express ourselves, how we live, practically on a cellular level.

Nobody’s saying men don’t experience fear or violence but don’t dare come on a women’s forum and try to draw a parallel with women’s experiences. You haven’t got any way of gauging how we grow up with our second class status at the hands of men. Go and read a few threads where women talk about growing up in a family with brothers, or how old they were when they first experienced predatory behaviour (it’s about 12 iirc) or how they’ve realised they’ve ended up doing all the childcare, elder care, and have no skills with which to earn money now. Male dominance isn’t just attack or rape or murder, it is everywhere, in everything.

It's another example of most men being so totally unaware and oblivious to the realities of living inside a female body that they just blindly project their own experience of the world onto women and shrug and say "well it's the same for me, so I don't know what you're fussing about".

Again the gift of male socialisation: if it doesn't affect you personally, you don't have to think about it or notice it or do anything about it.

The gift of female socialisation: to have to think about and notice everyone for everything and prove you've thought of men/children first, before you're allowed to try to explain the reality of the other 50% of the human race. To the male half, who mostly shrug and say "well that's never affected me, so it doesn't happen."

Terra nullis. Women are just a blank space men project all over and define according to their own perceptions, and mostly aren't even aware they're doing it because it's so normal.

It’s not all about you Dave.

@FloralBunting

Yes, it's a provocative title. But I'll be concerned about the terrible fallout from women who faced the brunt of patriarchy saying they hate men when there are negative consequences for men as a result.

Women face consequences daily because of misogyny, even unto our deaths. When a woman gets angry enough about that to say she hates men, a few male egos and their pride is a bit dented. There's no comparison.

I don't post that much on here because Floral always posts what I would have said first (and probably in a less wordy more effective way).

Thanks Floral you save my typing fingers I'm usually 'what Floral said'.

Christ it’s like listening to the midnight misogynist. 🙄

women don't really understand the realities of life as a man either.

As discussed in the article referenced on the philosophy thread: yes women do, because women have lived their entire lives in a system that is male dominated, reflects male needs, surrounded by advertising that reflects male perceptions of life, watching tv that is in massive majority created by men reflecting men's views and perceptions of life including their perception of female life and female characters - women are incredibly well educated on what life is like for men and seeing life through male eyes. The problem is that this narrative is portrayed as the objective truth, with many men unable to see that they only see women and women's lives through this male created view. And hence are baffled by women talking about aspects of life that aren't on their radar, don't affect them, haven't happened to them.

The issues of being male in our modern society - yes, they're huge, there's many issues there, but it's not a competition. It's not a zero sum game where one sex has to be the winner and the most important and the other sex has to accept their subordinate position. That's actually in itself very male thinking. You don't get the realities and issues for women we're talking about here - well listen, and talk to women about it and if you really want to find out about it and understand it then you have the chance to do so. Or you can join men's groups and look at supporting and awareness raising for those specific issues you're talking about for men.

Wanting women to shut up because it's making you uncomfortable and sounding as if you want them to just get back in their support human box..... odd choice to seek out a women centred, women's rights board to try saying that?

My partner earns literally half of what I earn but we share our finances so her standard of living is equal to mine, well probably higher as she has much less job related stress and burden of being the provider. This is pretty much the typical situation worldwide from what I can see.

You don't have a lot of respect for your partner or for her life choices, do you? If you look around this very woman dominated forum, you'll see for yourself why women advise other women, strongly, don't get yourself into a position where you are financially dependent and have lost your own means to make your living, and you'll see too what happens to women when their partner moves on and feels entitled to take what he sees as 'his' money and assets with him. Because 'she did nothing'. Except save him huge financial amounts in house care and child care, take responsibilities in the home and family he never had to think of, and at the cost of her own career, but that wasn't on his radar so didn't really exist. Read a few threads too about the women who lived with financial abuse - I particularly liked the one with the man who used to bring expensive takeaways home and eat them in front of his wife and kids, who on the allowance he permitted, were (his wife worked out) eating on 17p per person, per meal.

Nice being female, isn't it?

As less then 10% of women are feminists (if that statistic I read on here is true) it signals to me that the vast majority of women perhaps don't want to step into the shoes of men.

Again you see women talking about rights as some kind of hostile takeover bid. It's like the comments in the papers when men say in response to women talking about women's issues "well this is what happens to silly girls who get out of their box" and want things like equal pay, and to be allowed to vote and own property and not be raped with less than a 1% prosecution rate.

No, women really don't want to be the men instead of you. Re read a bit more of what women are actually saying instead of what you think they are saying.

I really don’t think about men other than the ones I am related to.

Me neither. I don't hate men, but I need to regularly remind myself how fortunate (and relatively unusual) I am for not having had personal reasons to hate them.

I believe men suffer the large majority of violence but can still see why women find us intimidating.

And those men suffer violence at the hands of men. Also, it would be interesting to know what proportion of male victims of violence are also or have also been perpetrators of violence.

So women shouldn't talk about (or draw attention to) the massively disproportionate and devastating impact of male violence because it makes men as a class feel bad?

Seriously?

@nibdedibble

I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit and I think I probably do hate ‘Men’ whilst loving and liking some of them. But I do always fizzle inwardly with anger when they don’t (as the saying goes) check their privilege. And sometimes I tell them to get a grip and ask themselves how what they’ve just said looks like from a woman’s pov.

I’m nearly fifty and I’m just tired of them. I have excellent female friends and I often think if dh were to drop dead or bugger off with a younger model, I would be appropriately sad/livid/lost and then my life could be female centred and to hell with men.

I just think, they’ve had their chances to be better, they won’t do it, I haven’t got long left really, so...fuck em!

Yes this is me.

I would also add that France really is the home of the entitled arrogant man who thinks the world should bow down at his feet and most French women tolerate this and are socialised to accept it. I studied French in University and spent a year in France and even at that young age I knew it was not for me. My best friend lives there now and it has not improved in the intervening years.

As less then 10% of women are feminists (if that statistic I read on here is true) it signals to me that the vast majority of women perhaps don't want to step into the shoes of men.

1. Just because lots of women don't give themselves the label 'feminist', that doesn't mean they don't believe in equality. 2) What on earth makes you think that feminist equals 'stepping into the shoes of men'?

An extremely tiny minority of men murder and the rest of us can't really stop this

Are you suggesting that murder is the most common form of male violence? Or that it's the only level of male violence that people should be trying to stop?

If the only way men as an entire group can stop being demonised is by ensuring that every single one of us is non violent then I think we'll be waiting forever.

What, so it's all or nothing? If male violence can't be entirely wiped out, men shouldn't bother trying? Calling other men out for sexist behaviour, misogynist remarks etc is a start. The more 'decent men' keep quiet and don't rock the boat, the longer it will be seen as acceptable to treat women with contempt and violence.

You never see signs saying 'beware of the cow' and it's not likely that bulls suffer from toxic masculinity.
Bulls can safely be kept with their cows and offspring. Its very rare for bulls to kill their cows. Same goes for horses, roosters, and boars. They are masculine without being toxic.
The 'toxic' part of toxic masculinity is the contempt and violence men show towards women.

Domestic violence costs the UK taxpayer over £66 billion a year. Its not a tiny fraction of men who are the problem.

If we're quoting suicide stats, women attempt suicide at the same rate as men but don't succeed as often because they use less violent methods. One third of them do so after surviving domestic violence.

Women aren't born being disgusted with male entitlement. It doesn't just pop into our heads one morning.

Feminists seem to portray their views as 'objective truth' but the vast majority of UK women actively disagree with feminist views. 75% believe in equality but only 7% want to be called feminists, so it's not that they don't want equality.

What survey are you working from with those percentages? When was it and how many women were surveyed, and under what circumstances?

There isn't a feminist political party with one group view, in fact there's many schools of feminism, what would you define as a feminist as a working definition? I'm not sure I would term myself as one. Interested in equality and the rights of women certainly. Radical in terms of belief around gender, certainly.

Look how many people lose their jobs through speaking out about genuine concerns and being called bigots etc.

I agree with you in some part, Dave. But look how many women lose their jobs for speaking up about their rights. And consider that sex is the only 'protected characteristic' that isn't protected in new/proposed hate crime legislation. (Which I don't support at all, but isn't it interesting to consider why that is and what it tells us about society's attitude towards women and the acceptibility of misogyny compared to other prejudices.)

I'd support her in whatever she chooses, including the situation that she wanted to further her career - in that case I'd happily accept a greater share in some of the things she currently does to facilitate me working long late shifts etc.

Yeah my ex said that and we both believed it. When push came to shove at one point though and a real clash emerged, he refused to budge any further than suited his job. It was a conditional offer only.