Conveyancers- man's name first

[MinnieMountain]

How much would this bother you if you were a woman and you put your name first on the forms/ your name is first alphabetically but your male DP was put first on your file?

I work for a licensed conveyancers as a title checker and I notice this on a significant number of files. I want to say something to the owners but as I'm not sure of their opinions on equal rights, I thought it best to ask around first.

The bank (mortgage) puts me first. Ditto gas & electricity. Just had a communication from a political party who put DH first, despite him being second, in every name, alphabetically. Guess who won't be getting my vote?

Bothers me massively. Just brought a house and my partner has had 0 input on anything, was second on forms etc... yet our case number is his last name. There was a period of about a month where no correspondence was coming to me on my email at all and it was all going direct to his, despite clearly telling them he does not monitor his emails and all calls/emails to go through me!

@DailyFailstinks

It’s usually the case a management software used by law firms that does this. It’s irritating but very hard to change unless the fee earner amends every letter / document manually - which they simply don’t have time to do.

I’ve just asked my conveyancer husband about this, and he says that at his firm the software defaults to alphabetical, but the fee earners manually change it to man first (unless they are a same sex couple) because that’s the convention. He says only a few people have ever complained and he can’t see the problem. He also justified it on the basis that men are usually the higher - or only - earners and are usually named first on the mortgage and other relevant documents. 😲

This pisses me off to no end.

I bought our home, using my salary as the income metric, my credit rating as the credit metric without using any of DH's info. We added DH name to mortgage as the second responsible party and to the deed as the second deed holder. When refinancing the same was true.

I handle all of our finances - DH couldn't tell you what is in the bank or what debts we have or what our ROI are (he has access to everything but trusts me more than himself to handle all of it - I work in the finance/accounting arena and have my realtor license for business brokerage).

The county property appraisers and tax collectors offices don't even list me as an owner and refuse to speak to me without DH's vocal approval on the phone or physical approval in person (even after multiple requests from DH and myself in writing over 20yrs), mortgage company lists DH as primary, and homeowners insurance lists DH's name first and require his 'approval' to submit claims since the mortgage company lists him as 'primary owner'. FTR, DH name did not appear on any home records until he was added; when he was added I was basically erased.

He also justified it on the basis that men are usually the higher - or only - earners and are usually named first on the mortgage and other relevant documents.

Ask him how he would feel in my situation described above? The downpayment came from my pay, the mortgage based on my income, the interest rate based on my credit rating... to be erased as if a tool in the handing over of the property to my DH. As if I were subhuman, a mere vehicle to substantiate purchase on an otherwise unwritable deal.

@FireUnderTheHand

He also justified it on the basis that men are usually the higher - or only - earners and are usually named first on the mortgage and other relevant documents.

Ask him how he would feel in my situation described above? The downpayment came from my pay, the mortgage based on my income, the interest rate based on my credit rating... to be erased as if a tool in the handing over of the property to my DH. As if I were subhuman, a mere vehicle to substantiate purchase on an otherwise unwritable deal.

I’ve just read your post to DH and he agrees this is terrible, but he says it wouldn’t happen in the U.K, as mortgage lenders treat mortgage borrowers jointly and severally, with both having full and free access to records. Same applies to land registry title Information. (We’re assuming you’re in the USA - sorry if that’s wrong)

I’m really shocked by this too. It sounds like how things would have been here 30 years ago.

He’s still not relenting on the order of names on the files though, but I’m hoping we’ve at least planted a seed in his mind that it’s offensive to a lot of women. Hopefully he will mention it to his female boss tomorrow.

@SofaSurfette

I wouldn't give it a second thought. In my view people think far too much into these things. Someone's name has to be first, why does it matter!

It matters. It really does.

There should not be an automatic assumption that men are to be addressed first. This is the shit we've been fighting to change for years.

I’ve just read your post to DH and he agrees this is terrible, but he says it wouldn’t happen in the U.K, as mortgage lenders treat mortgage borrowers jointly and severally, with both having full and free access to records. Same applies to land registry title Information. (We’re assuming you’re in the USA - sorry if that’s wrong)

100% on point, USA - Florida to be exact! I can access all of the records online but I can't make changes that require actual contact. Mortgage company takes payments from me just fine and speaks to me just fine but they (both the 1st and refinance) were the catalysts that put DH in 1st position leading the property appraiser and tax collector and homeowners insurance companies to create a barrier to my activity (beyond payments of course, gotta get that money!) - activity like modifying the insurance policies/making claims, updating property records and pulling permits.

I’m really shocked by this too. It sounds like how things would have been here 30 years ago.

As women we are told again and again in the US that our ship has sailed - that we won our rights but everywhere I turn in this country I see erasure of my kind of woman and inclusion of individuals in female spaces that experience or have experienced the benefits of being male. Also that males are always the default even when a woman made the purchase based on her merit and handles all of the associated ancillaries during and post-purchase.

He’s still not relenting on the order of names on the files though, but I’m hoping we’ve at least planted a seed in his mind that it’s offensive to a lot of women. Hopefully he will mention it to his female boss tomorrow.

All we can do is plant the seeds, I plant them with my DH and attempt to cultivate them but ultimately it is up to him to determine his perspective.

It's sad to read the experiences of everyday sexism. Although it's not surprising. The esrast

I suspect it's a case ofo one in my firm has thought about it. We have one female and one male owner, and the majority of directors are women.

The big bosses are busy keeping estate agents happy right now. I'll have a word with a director tomorrow.

*the estate agent when we bought our house kept on ringing DH instead of me, despite me telling him that I'm a property solicitor and the primary contact.

I'm quite shocked by this! Never experienced it, I do all the finance/ admin and never had anything addressed to DH even though he's named. I'm in Scotland, maybe depends where you are. I have, however, had the nonsense from school where they always contact me not DH even if I put him first.

It’s not just annoying, it’s insulting.

I work on a one and a half chance and you’re out system. If there’s a case where my name or details should be first and it’s put last I call and ask them to change it. If they fail then I call and say I’m moving my business elsewhere- if they apologise and fix it they’ve redeemed their half chance. If they say sorry to see you go and don’t apologise or actually try to fix it then they don’t get that extra chance.

Done it twice with estate agents as I was the contact, one failed, one fixed right away.

I have low tolerance for computer automated rubbish though, my name requires an unusual capitalisation system as it’s Dutch, so while I don’t mind getting doctors letters with my name mangled, if I’m paying someone a good chunk of money for a service I expect them to be able to pay attention to these kind of details.

Same applies to land registry title Information

Maybe tell HMRC that because as dh was listed first on the land registry I couldn't claim stamp duty refund without a letter from him authorising it. That was not explained to us by the solicitor and to be fair she was shocked about it too. She had said it was quite straightforward and it would have been if dh had put the claim in.

I will stick my neck out here, and say that I can't believe people get worked up about the order of names on a piece of paper. As a western woman I feel that in 2020 I have equal opportunity to a man. Sorry but I really do. Think of how women are treated elsewhere in the world if you really want to get worked up about inequality!

@TW2013 that is ridiculous though, how outdated! That definitely needs to be changed.

I will stick my neck out here, and say that I can't believe people get worked up about the order of names on a piece of paper.

"Well I'm happy to symbolically always come second, and so should all you other silly women! (know your place!)"

@Kaiserin

I will stick my neck out here, and say that I can't believe people get worked up about the order of names on a piece of paper.

"Well I'm happy to symbolically always come second, and so should all you other silly women! (know your place!)"

^This

@ChampagneCommunist

I always put the woman's name first, on principle.

No-one ever questions it. It's my small act of defiance

Love it 🥁🍷😀

@SofaSurfette that is a ridiculous statement given the fact that women are the ones who have children. Just because you had equal opportunities doesnt mean every woman did. Geeeeez.

It's also not a race to the bottom. I hate the "other people have it worse, so you shouldn't complain" attide.

I've always insisted on being first as I remember the building society scandal.
We both joined a certain political party last year. I did the paperwork. Guess who got a welcome phone call? I picked up the phone and explained I'd just joined too, but they had no interest in talking to me, asking why I'd joined etc.

@SofaSurfette

I will stick my neck out here, and say that I can't believe people get worked up about the order of names on a piece of paper. As a western woman I feel that in 2020 I have equal opportunity to a man. Sorry but I really do. Think of how women are treated elsewhere in the world if you really want to get worked up about inequality!

@TW2013 that is ridiculous though, how outdated! That definitely needs to be changed.

If it was merely the order on a piece of paper, maybe few would worry about it. It's the fact that women are experiencing problems because of companies putting their DH first, treating him as the primary contact etc - and the other way round with some schools.

It's stupid, unnecessary everyday sexism which makes organisations less efficient.

For mortgage purposes we were informed that the higher earner details would be first, so for our first mortgage all paperwork including conveyancing were mine (female) and subsequent mortgages have been my Husband as he is now the higher earner, could that be the reason?

@WishMyNameWasWittyNotShitty highly unlikely for conveyancing. We generally ask what our clients' jobs are but not their actual salaries.

I couldn't ask at work today as things are a bit messy until DS gets a clear COVID test but will do next week.

And I shall now put the woman's name first on my letters.

@DianasLasso

Alphabetical is good.

In this case there shouldn't be adverse consequences, but I remember the scandal a few years back when various mutuals (building societies) became banks and share issues were made to the first named individual but not the second, and many BS had a policy of putting the man's name first. It turned out there was no legal means of redress so tens of thousands of women lost out. So these discussions sometimes do matter very much, surfette.

Yes, I was one. On an account I opened with money my DF gave me and to which I only added DH after we got married. I remember being furious.