LBC now - topic is questioning whether transgenderism is logically the same as transitioning from white to black

[chocciechocface]

Just letting you know ....

Maybe they don't matter to you when it concerns an oppressed group you're not part of

Honestly these sorts of comments and assumptions are revealing. You don’t know who I am or what I experience. You have misinterpreted what the intention was behind the comments.

@NearlyGranny

If we're unhappy about letting people identify into a group that can't identify out of their oppression, them m to f transition is problematic as well as white to black.

If self ID is acceptable for sex, it follows that race and age should be next. Ultimately, anyone could self ID into an age, sex and race group that qualifies them for special consideration for job interviews, for example or educational scholarships. What about mediocre athletes using self ID to compete in Paralympic games? What's to stop them once that self ID door is kicked in? If one group can have special privileges or exemptions because of a particular characteristic, why can't we all?

The sooner the whole thing implodes under its own weight, the better.

Think of the craziness that kicked off with people taking 'therapy' animals onto planes: pigs, peacocks and probably peccaries too for all I know. The airlines had to call a halt because it became a challenge to some people to see how far they could push the thing.

A thing like this peaks when enough people are brave enough to say, "You're taking the piss now - enough!'

This is exactly what I think!

If you are allowed to change the sex on your birth certificate because of how you feel, then you should be able to change any other 'fact' about your life.

still a minority

I increasingly find I notice with the men in my own family, all decent, nice humans, men can rarely be buggered to care about anything that doesn't affect them. Which includes all women's issues and women's experiences, my df has said quite frankly 'well it doesn't bother me, does it?'. It's part of the privilege of being born male in our culture. Females do the job of managing everybody's needs: it's the burden that comes with being born female. They've even tried to rebrand feminism as 'sorting out equality for everyone'.

Where males get interested is where their own interests get affected. My df commented about how all this trans politics didn't affect him so why care, and then I explained what his granddaughters will deal with in their changing room and loo, and what his daughters will experience, and he went apopletic and wrote to his MP. Because His Property then stepped on by other males.

I do honestly think this is why some males support the TRA line: because they get the concept of males wanting x or y, because males. Part of their team. Females on the other hand? Female problem, and females are everyone's mum anyway, and there's the whole enjoying competition thing and that it's quite nice to be on the winning team and see how men are more powerful and get what they want against women.

Equality, for men, is largely about considering other men. This is tragic, if you're female its absolutely fucking horrendous, but it is true. This is what we're fighting.

MillyMollyFarmer - I'm reluctant to continue derailing the thread, and as I said, I'm sure we're on the same side as far as women's rights go.

But seriously, when you're in a hole, stop digging. You are defending something that is indefensible. stumbledin suggested that Jews were seen as 'closer to the power elite' and were in a 'position of relative privilege'.

I don't need to know anything about you to know that suggesting that blacks and Jews are two entirely separate races, or suggesting that there is an oppression Olympics and Jews come lower than black people in it, is really unhelpful for the argument that we are both making, as well as being unscientific waffle.

In reality, there is significant overlap between black people and Jewish people; in reality both black people and Jews experience discrimination, some of it similar, some of it different, but attempts to put the discrimination into league tables is monumentally unhelpful to both parties.

@xxyzz I agree with everything you've written. It's what I tried to explain in my posts yesterday - perhaps not expressed as well as you! There's been a worrying increase in anti-Semitism in recent years. Lots not reported - gravestones vandalised, assaults (verbal and physical). Ignorant stereotypes (generalising about a whole group based on a few members of that group) should not go unchallenged/uncorrected.

On another thread about this, the OP felt it relevant to describe Jessica Krug as a white Jewish woman because that's how Jessica self described (although she of course self described as black a few weeks before). I suspect OP wouldn't have felt it relevant to refer to her as a white overweight woman (had Krug self described as overweight). As it happens I do think it's relevant, but not because Jews, a very oppressed and persecuted group, are 'oppressors' but because some people don't see Jewish people as white even when their skin tone is white (both Jews themselves, and some racists on the far right). I'm also not sure whether some posters have yet taken in that Jews can be black skin toned. I noticed with BLM, people are told if they're not black, they don't get to deny or discuss or question the black person's experience - and importantly, perception - of racism. It's telling that when many many Jewish individuals and groups expressed outright fear over Corbyn being antisemitic, everyone else was allowed to dismiss, question, and deny Jewish people's experiences and perceptions. I certainly wouldn't say Jewish people (of all skin tones) are an oppressing class.

Returning to trans issues. I'm feeling old and tired today. I've realised I identity as an older woman. I'm looking forward to drawing my pension and a living in a nice quiet retirement village.

Black people can be Jewish. Jewish people can be black. Jewishness is not about skin tone or colour. Baroness King (former Labour MP, Oona King) is black and Jewish.

Whoopi Goldberg is black and self described as Jewish.

Thanks, SheepandCow.

As I said on the other thread, I'm Jewish and have been called a P* and experienced racism from people who thought I was Roma. As well as anti-Semitism from people who knew I was Jewish. So I find claims that Jews are de facto white and experience life entirely as white people and with white 'privilege' really unhelpful.

I don't identify as black, but I don't identify as white, either. There are too few Jews in the UK for us to get our own box on ethnic identity forms, so I have no choice but to tick the 'other' box - quite literally 'othered'. Racial identity is not simple.

By comparison, male and female are completely clear-cut binary categories. And men clearly do experience class privileges over women as a class.

The idea therefore that it is beyond the pale to identify as black, while simultaneously applauding those men who identify as women, is clearly rampant hypocrisy.

Does your DH think we should do away with safeguarding becatse only a tiny minority of adults abuse children?

What a fucking excellent riposte; I do hope we get some feedback.

(Like Kit I too am not having a go at OP or OP's DH)

- I'm reluctant to continue derailing the thread

Then please start a new one which addresses your concerns. You've already raised some interesting points and I for one would be happy to contribute that new thread.

@MichelleofzeResistance

still a minority

I increasingly find I notice with the men in my own family, all decent, nice humans, men can rarely be buggered to care about anything that doesn't affect them. Which includes all women's issues and women's experiences, my df has said quite frankly 'well it doesn't bother me, does it?'. It's part of the privilege of being born male in our culture. Females do the job of managing everybody's needs: it's the burden that comes with being born female. They've even tried to rebrand feminism as 'sorting out equality for everyone'.

Where males get interested is where their own interests get affected. My df commented about how all this trans politics didn't affect him so why care, and then I explained what his granddaughters will deal with in their changing room and loo, and what his daughters will experience, and he went apopletic and wrote to his MP. Because His Property then stepped on by other males.

I do honestly think this is why some males support the TRA line: because they get the concept of males wanting x or y, because males. Part of their team. Females on the other hand? Female problem, and females are everyone's mum anyway, and there's the whole enjoying competition thing and that it's quite nice to be on the winning team and see how men are more powerful and get what they want against women.

Equality, for men, is largely about considering other men. This is tragic, if you're female its absolutely fucking horrendous, but it is true. This is what we're fighting.

You're on form today; I love reading what you have to say.

I don't think it is derailing the thread. It's relevant because it's an example of how race can be more blurred lines, not as clear cut, especially with races having mixed so much over thousands of years. Its not as binary as sex.

In any event, what's wrong with a discussion evolving naturally.

I think the Jewishness of Jessica Krug complicates the case. I saw a link posted on another thread. A definition of BAME. It included Arabs. Jews are ethnicity wise closely related to Arabs, and also many Arabs look as white skin toned as Jews. Separately Jewish people originally come from Israel, which is close regionally to Africa. So I don't think it's as simple as a white person impersonating a black person in this case. I think it's more complicated.

Listened to it today. It was an interesting discussion. It was amazing to hear the penny drop as people called in. I was pleased to hear the sort of conversation we should be getting on the BBC.

However what was missed was the fact that Krug and Dolezal had been "living as black" considerably longer than a TW is required to "live as a woman" before getting a GRC. Nawaz's point was that he should not identify as a woman today and get on an all women shortlist tomorrow. He argued for the status quo in respect of the GRA, so a TW with a GRC could, according to him, get on an all women shortlist.

By that logic, there is no reason not to have a "Race Recognition Act" by which a white person who, like Krug, has "lived as black" for two years could get a "Race Recognition Certificate" and be "treated for all purposes" as black.

Nawaz needs to follow through on his analogy.

I’m a POC.
I experience sexism and racism in exactly the same way except in my lived experience..
Sexist Men think they can physically touch or harm me because I am a woman.
Racist People think they can say what they like to me about the colour of my skin.
Sometimes I get the double gift of both.
I feel... that transgender and transracial are the same issue.
Cannot see a logical argument as to why it’s different.
Yet the same people will champion one, argue the other.
Illogical and insulting.