Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

To boldly go

97 replies

Gottalife · 03/09/2020 12:46

Trans on StarTrek. Yippee.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-54012463

OP posts:
NearlyGranny · 04/09/2020 09:40

Can anyone explain why being trans or non-binary guarantees that you have a 'beautiful soul'? That's alongside being brave and amazing, of course, which are givens.

I'm feeling a bit cis, normal, cowardly and boring by contrast, not to mention experiencing a new anxiety about whether I have an ugly soul. All this because I'm cravenly contented with the meaningless 'sex' some unwoke midwife apparently randomly assigned me at birth. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Kit19 · 04/09/2020 09:43

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

NearlyGranny · 04/09/2020 09:44

Would my millennials respect me more if I came out as non-binary, do you think? Or found the inner man I ought to have been all along?

I could do it in time for a couple of upcoming weddings and insist on sharing the 'father of the bride' speech slot with my DH. It would solve the problem of what to wear, too!

Kit19 · 04/09/2020 09:56

blimey the monitors are out early today

Suffrajester · 04/09/2020 11:26

@NearlyGranny

Can anyone explain why being trans or non-binary guarantees that you have a 'beautiful soul'? That's alongside being brave and amazing, of course, which are givens.

I'm feeling a bit cis, normal, cowardly and boring by contrast, not to mention experiencing a new anxiety about whether I have an ugly soul. All this because I'm cravenly contented with the meaningless 'sex' some unwoke midwife apparently randomly assigned me at birth. 🤷🏼‍♀️

I'm worried about whether I have a soul at all! I thought I was a body and the body's actions this whole time. I need to get Layla Moran to have a look for me.
langclegflavoredbananamush · 04/09/2020 11:44

I just can't let a discussion like this without bringing up that episode of Deep Space Nine which starts out with Quark sexually harassing one of his dabo girl employees, implying that she'll be fired if she doesn't learn to do oo-mox on him (sexual stimulation by massaging his large Ferengi ears.)

Later in the episode, for reasons which in the plot seem to be ostensibly about securing equality for the sexes, Quark must reluctantly undergo sex change surgery (which is apparently much more convincing in the Trek universe). We see a huge pile of creepy misogynistic stereotypes, (he becomes overemotional, oversensitive, preoccupied with his appearance). He experiences sexual harassment/assault in his post op body, and at the end of the episode, apologizes to the dabo girl for his advances. But, surprise, she'd read about oo-max, and was interested in giving it a try on him...

I think Trek has entertainment value and interesting ideas, but it stabs women in the back more often than not. It's annoying to me when they try to pretend otherwise.

DianasLasso · 04/09/2020 12:27

langclegflavoredbananamush that's an interesting example to bring up!

One thing I've noticed over decades of watching Star Trek is that it's not really sci-fi in the sense of exploring what might be; it's actually mainstream TV for a mainstream US audience which tells you far more about the American politics of the moment in which any individual episode is made. And what's more, it unwittingly tells you a lot about the tensions between the image the US wants to project of itself and the US as it actually is.

So old-era Kirk et al - prime directive, not interfering with alien civilisations (again, how America of that era would have liked the world to see it, rather than how it was, fresh out of the Vietnam war); Captain Janeways era - realpolitik comes to the fore, politics and space exploration is a dirty business and sometimes otherwise good people have to get their hands dirty in pursuit of the greater good (against a backdrop of Gitmo in the real world).

So (as always) all this choice of thing to make a kerfuffle about in the plot and in the accompanying press releases tells you is that this is a hot topic in real-world American society, and this is what the programme makers think the "politically acceptable" real-world read on this topic is.

And as with your Quark example, this also reveals interesting things about the real-world prejudices of the programme makers, some of which they don't actually intend to reveal!

I think the other thing that's been implicit in sci fi like Star Trek for a long time is the "hearts not parts" mantra. Some of this was well intentioned (cross-species relationships in sci fi often functioned as a somewhat clumsy metaphor for inter-racial relationships at a time when those weren't accepted by mainstream US culture - though I think the Kirk-Uhura kiss achieved more in this direction than any amount of humans marrying Klingons or whatever). But I think there's always been an odd undercurrent of biology denial - I mean, why even think an alien would have the right bits to make romantic/sexual cross-species relationships possible, much less desirable?

Suffrajester · 04/09/2020 13:01

Depends on the alien, I suppose: a humanoid species like Vulcans, Betazoids or Klingons could crossbreed with humans, and we met half-human children of those species and there was some explanation in TNG for them all looking similar and being able to interbreed, they were all seeded around the galaxy from a precursor species IIRC. But something very different from a human, like a Horta or a cetacean, couldn't.
Like you say, largely it was an exploration of biracial or immigrant experience, albeit a clumsy one, you see Spock and his parents struggle with what it means to be Vulcan and human, a foot in both cultures.

ChesterDrawsDoesntExist · 04/09/2020 13:03

Clearly not a Trekkie then eh?

It's okay. You tried.

Star Fleet Characters have been boldly going into non-binary Aliens pants for decades now.

ChesterDrawsDoesntExist · 04/09/2020 13:04

@TreestumpsAndTrampolines

Will I offend anyone if I say Farscape was better than both the Star Trek and Star Wars?

Offend, no, but I don't agree.. now Babylon 5.....

In 'The Orville' they have a race that is all 'male' except they're not, they surgically alter females at birth - considering it's Seth MacFarlane, it was surprisingly well done (and The Orville is worth a watch - harks back to TOS/Next Gen in some good ways)

Farscape was wonderful. They all are.

The Orville is everything extra we wished Trek to be.

But nothing compares to Firefly. Fact.

DianasLasso · 04/09/2020 13:16

@ChesterDrawsDoesntExist

Clearly not a Trekkie then eh?

It's okay. You tried.

Star Fleet Characters have been boldly going into non-binary Aliens pants for decades now.

Oh, I know they have (not quite sure who your comment was aimed at - OP, I guess).

What interests me is what it tells us about the presuppositions of the script-writers.

Not just sex, but across the board - why does so much of sci fi assume that most aliens are broadly humanoid, sufficiently similar to us to interbreed, sufficiently like us that their motivations and rationality are mutually intelligible?

Partly narrative necessity - if their motivations and rationality weren't mutually intelligible, you probably wouldn't end up with much of a plot.

Partly because, as I've said, sci fi is only rarely (and only the very best of it) about genuinely imagining what might be there in terms of species and civilizations genuinely different from our own. More often it's simply a fictional mirror held up to our own civilization, as a way of using metaphor to explore that. And it can be done well, or badly, and often (unwittingly) reveals all sorts of things about the prejudices of the scriptwriters, as in bananamush's example of the unwitting misogyny behind the Feringi ear fetish episode.

And sometimes it's sheer bloody lazyness - let's turn a cowboy plot into something different by painting the antagonists green and giving them bobbly antennae - that way we can recycle our entire existing output as a studio without having to put any creative energy into it.

iklboo · 04/09/2020 13:32

@ChesterDrawsDoesntExist - you're gorram right about that. Firefly was shiny!

Winesalot · 04/09/2020 13:41

But nothing compares to Firefly. Fact.

Gutted that this was not renewed.

DianasLasso · 04/09/2020 13:47

Firefly was indeed brilliant.

merrymouse · 04/09/2020 13:54

"It believes in showing people that a future without division on the basis of race, gender, gender identity or sexual orientation is entirely within our reach."

It's a show with androids and teleporting, and I seem to remember that they are 'post-money'.

If the show runner thinks including things on Star Trek makes them within reach, they may have misunderstood the show.

Miriel · 04/09/2020 14:05

If the 'non-binary' character is from a society that doesn't have gender stereotypes (or a species that only has one sex, or there's another science fictionish reason for it) then it's fine, but it's also unoriginal because as others have said, Star Trek has been doing that kind of plot for ages.

I'm worried that it'll be a regular human man or woman who declares that because they don't fit (21st century!) stereotypes, they're actually neither male nor female. In other words, very regressive.

In that case, I'll stick to watching Picard.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 04/09/2020 14:12

@DianasLasso

Firefly was indeed brilliant.
Yep

One of our favourites...

ThinEndoftheWedge · 04/09/2020 14:27

Weren’t all the Borg non-binary, except for the queen? But as the Queen is based on bees - are they actually non binary insects?

merrymouse · 04/09/2020 14:31

Weren’t all the Borg non-binary, except for the queen? But as the Queen is based on bees - are they actually non binary insects?

I checked this out - the Borg only reproduce by assimilating other species. (Which seems a very inefficient way to reproduce...)

Who knows how all those species reproduce, although I suppose for practical purposes, (as with most Star Trek species) they seem to be overwhelmingly humanoid.

langclegflavoredbananamush · 04/09/2020 14:33

And what's more, it unwittingly tells you a lot about the tensions between the image the US wants to project of itself and the US as it actually is.

an example:

I was a kid when the reruns of the first series were on TV every day, and couldn't understand why it was supposed to be so liberating for women just because there were a couple of gorgeous, obedient, scantily clad women on the bridge. And of course the gorgeous alien woman of the week could never resist Kirk...
They did/do have their moments of proper science fiction, like the wormhole aliens of DS9, which don't have bodies and exist outside of linear time. But as you say
(the show)
often (unwittingly) reveals all sorts of things about the prejudices of the scriptwriters

Its often painfully obvious that this imagined interstellar Federation is just a sort of projection of America leading the galaxy instead of just the world. In Japan, family names are used before personal names, but in the Trek universe, that's a peculiarity of the alien Bajorans.

DianasLasso · 04/09/2020 15:08

ConfusedShockWinkGrin bananamush

TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 04/09/2020 15:10

How about in DS9 where Quark has a whole speech guilting Sisko about human slavery etc. And we're all supposed to be nodding along to how perhaps Ferengi aren't so terrible afterall. Which of course only works when you forget that they keep Ferengi women naked and at home. Sexism, even when the writers think they're making some deep point.

"The way I see it, hew-mons used to be a lot like Ferengi: greedy, acquisitive, interested only in profit. We're a constant reminder of a part of your past you'd like to forget."
"We don't have time for this..."
"But you're overlooking something: Hew-mons used to be a lot worse than the Ferengi. Slavery. Concentration camps. Interstellar wars. We have nothing in our past that approaches that kind of barbarism. You see? We're nothing like you. We're better. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a lock to pick."

TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 04/09/2020 15:12

And yes, I bloody love Firefly.

langclegflavoredbananamush · 04/09/2020 15:55

TreestumpsAndTrampolines

Even Kira, who early in the series despises Quark for his underhandedness and open misogyny, ends up respecting him and treating him like a friend, without the slightest change of attitude on his part.
The writers and a good slice of the fandom seem to envision the Trek universe as one where women have achieved all the equality they could ever need, with a few token women in power here and there. And most Trek fans consider this version of the future to be a very optimistic one. I find that quite depressing- it's so hierarchal, not to mention based on military hierarchy. The deification of the uniform and captain's chair is creepy, as is the emphasis on obedience to those of higher rank. If I try to imagine an optimistic vision of the future where women are really regarded as fully fledged humans, such things would be well in the past.

TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 04/09/2020 16:03

well yeah, and of course it's Kira Nerys who ends up being surrogate for Keiko and O'Brian after an accident, - so even in this 'utopian' future they definitely still require female specific labour.

She always got such a raw deal, never really written to be as forceful as she should be, despite the reputation of being aggressive I thought.

Swipe left for the next trending thread