Everyday Racism Instagram on "Karen"

[Mizzler]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CEpA-dlMjj_/?hl=en

I've been trying to learn more about race and racism since the BLM protest movement appeared and I'd been following this Instagram account as a way of trying to understand more about the issues involved.

This post has really troubled me though and I'm struggling to articulate why. I think it's because whilst I completely accept that black and minority ethnic women suffer great disadvantages in the UK, I'm very uncomfortable with the "Karen" meme. It strikes me as deeply misogynistic. In this post, they make reference to a "Karen" asking to speak to a manager as a way of asserting authority. Isn't that what women SHOULD be doing? Being assertive isn't the same as being aggressive, even if women behaving assertively is perceived as aggression by a patriarchal society.

I feel like I'm rambling here and I'd be very grateful for other people's thoughts.

[ForrestTrump]

I notice that with these types of dynamics that the actions of the demographic that are 'punching up' are often judged differently. Like when people say that it's not sexist against men to say xyz because men are the dominant class and women are punching up.

I think this is a similar situation in that white, middle class women are much more privileged than the working class BME retail workers that Karens are typically said to denigrate, so any mockery of them is considered punching up like the previous example.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Yes Forrest but I've not seen BAME women using the term. It's the woke, blue haired. And men, mostly white men. Punching down.

[ForrestTrump]

Yes Forrest but I've not seen BAME women using the term. It's the woke, blue haired. And men, mostly white men. Punching down.

Indeed it does seem to be principally the woke using it, but that begs another difficult question in that does it matter who fights the cause of those lacking in privilege. Certainly, a large proportion of the people who get incandescent about racism (e.g. the fuzzy hair mermaid etc) are white women, for example.

[lakesidefall]

In the UK it is clearly sexist, ageist and classist as well.

I've seen it used by men and younger women.

It is definitely punching down and designed to keep middle aged woman of lower middle class and below quiet and in their place.

[ForrestTrump]

To be fair, last time I saw it used was by the sister of that black guy who the 'central park Karen' tried to get shot by the police for asking her to put her dog on the lead.

I think it's more about the behaviour of the 'Karens' than the people pointing it out (albeit in a sneering way). There's definitely a type of middle class white woman who uses her privilege to belittle those 'below' her, and despite the distasteful memes I think it shouldn't be brushed under the carpet.

[ForrestTrump]

I used to live in a fairly posh market town with a high tourist population and many eastern European (mainly Polish) service/ hospitality staff. I've witnessed a lot of middle class English women being extremely condescending to EE women. My Lithuanian flatmate at the time used to talk about it. She was degree educated and very smart but was working in a hotel whilst she improved her written English and said it happened a lot and that she was often treated very differently from the English girls by the customers and the female managers.

[lakesidefall]

I think this meme is one that just doesn't translate between the USA and the UK well.

Although I think there is a fair chunk of sexism in the way it is used in the USA as well.

[ForrestTrump]

I think this meme is one that just doesn't translate between the USA and the UK well.

Not in terms of the name, in that Karen is less of a middle class name over here. But I do believe you can find similarities in the behaviour. For example, if you substituted Karen for 'Camilla' or a similar name in the UK then the analogy would work IMO.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

@ForrestTrump

I used to live in a fairly posh market town with a high tourist population and many eastern European (mainly Polish) service/ hospitality staff. I've witnessed a lot of middle class English women being extremely condescending to EE women. My Lithuanian flatmate at the time used to talk about it. She was degree educated and very smart but was working in a hotel whilst she improved her written English and said it happened a lot and that she was often treated very differently from the English girls by the customers and the female managers.

It's true. I have shouted I AM POLISH at various arseholes spouting Daily Mail nonsense. Heritage rather than born so no accent. Therefore they feel able to spill their vitriol near me.

Everywhere people feel free to treat people they perceive as less powerful badly. Being a blonde woman hasn't been a walk in the park with older, richer men talking to me patronisingly for decades. And asking to speak to my manager. A lot. Happened last week in fact.

The issue with Karen is that it's blaming one particular demographic for all the sins. And unsurprisingly, that demographic is female. Yes white, middle class and privileged but also female. Why? It's not a female trait.

And fighting people's battle for them always ends in tears. Self determination is key. Male allies in feminism have a nasty habit of knowing what's best for us. And woke young white people may mean well but they don't speak for, and run the movements of, black people.

[ForrestTrump]

I agree. But I daresay that a lot of middle class white women don't like having to check their privilege too. It's quite clear when the threads about white feminism come up.

To be fair, I do appreciate that it's often used as a gotcha by MRA types which likely causes people to be suspicious of the motives of people who use it. But I also think there are quite a few women who haven't taken well to being bumped down the oppression ladder by BME women and more recently the trans lobby (appreciate self ID is a massive concern, but I think many are also incandescent with rage at a subset of men being widely viewed as more oppressed than women).

I appreciate that my views are a little controversial.

[Dyrne]

@ForrestTrump this isn’t about women being upset about losing their victim status, how bizarre of you to think like that.

“Karen” started as a way for BAME people in the US to fight back against racist middle class aggressive people, absolutely. What people on this thread are saying is that it has
now been appropriated by people who are gleeful they have found a new way to insult and belittle woman while looking “woke”.

Spend some time searching around - the vast majority of the uses of the word aren’t calling out shitty behaviour; they’re used to put women back into their place. It isn’t reserved for reminding people to “check their privilege”; it’s used to call a woman a bitch and get lauded for it.

[ForrestTrump]

the vast majority of the uses of the word aren’t calling out shitty behaviour; they’re used to put women back into their place. It isn’t reserved for reminding people to “check their privilege”; it’s used to call a woman a bitch and get lauded for it.

I more interpret it as being used to tell somebody to 'shut up' when they're being a pain in the arse or pedantic, but of course the gendered nature of the phrase is a bit sexist, even if the person it's being used against is genuinely a bit of a drama queen (another gendered term).

It's not unlike the concept of 'mansplaining' which can in many cases be effectively used to shut down a man who is simply giving his view, even if it initially described a condescending/patronising man.

[ForrestTrump]

"OK boomer"

"OK Karen"

"Pipe down"

"Put a sock in it"

"Stop with the mansplaining already"

"Yeah, yeah, whatever"

All fairly similar ways of shutting down debate.

[Dyrne]

But the point is that it isn’t just being used when someone is being a pain in the arse.

The women with short haircuts who have their photo covertly taken in public and then splashed onto social media “I found the mega-Karen - I BET she’s waiting to see the manager ha ha ha!!!!”

Or the women who post literally anything, no matter how innocuous, on a public page get barrages of “OMG Karen’s Karen-ing again” “Would you like to speak to the manager of this page?” “We found a wild Karen!!!”

Also acting like behaving unreasonably or racist is strictly the preserve of middle aged white women, conveniently ignoring the other demographics who behave just as unreasonably or worse - they’re just called “male Karens” etc, if anything at all.

[learieonthewildmoor]

Whenever someone tries to tell me that ‘Karen’ isn’t sexist, I ask what’s the name we call men who are white middle class etc; and what does their hair look like?

[ForrestTrump]

Whenever someone tries to tell me that ‘Karen’ isn’t sexist, I ask what’s the name we call men who are white middle class etc

Well, I'm in no doubt about it being sexist as it clearly is, but we do have 'gammon' and 'pale, stale, and male' for men (the latter of which I saw used on MN tonight actually).

Or the women who post literally anything, no matter how innocuous, on a public page get barrages of “OMG Karen’s Karen-ing again” “Would you like to speak to the manager of this page?” “We found a wild Karen!!!”

This is just what I consider to be 'dickheads on the internet' tbh. I think there is an underlying point to the Karen meme which arguably needs considered, but as with any meme it gets taken to the max by some. I think a lot of people using memes are pretty young and in today's social media environment we're privy to a lot of discussions and exchanges which we wouldn't have been before youths interacted online.

I'm not saying it's ok but there is loads of unsavoury stuff on the internet likely exacerbated by the relative anonymity and lack of consequence compared to face to face encounters. It's why I largely dislike social media and try not to spend too much time on the internet tbh. I sometimes think it's not dissimilar to how people react behind the wheel - spontaneous interactions with people who you don't know, which can elicit behaviour that just wouldn't usually happen in real life.

[CallarMorvern]

As someone called Karen, it's pretty shit, I actually want to change my name. My thoughts and opinions online don't count anymore. The difference in replies, when I use my real name compared to those when I use a pseudonym is startling. It's just yet more sexist bullying, so tired of it.

Yes, some women are racists or behave badly, but call them out for their behaviour, don't attribute some woman's name to it.

[CallarMorvern]

behaviour that just wouldn't usually happen in real life.

Unfortunately it does.

[NotTerfNorCis]

'Ok Karen ' and 'ok boomer' are obviously worse than 'put a sock in it' because they're targeting and dismissing categories of people - women, and the old.

[Chairbear]

There aren't a tonne of men with Dick on their birth certificate, even if there are, so what? Why does that excuse the disgusting misogyny that exists around Karen.

[Chairbear]

Well, I'm in no doubt about it being sexist as it clearly is, but we do have 'gammon' and 'pale, stale, and male' for men (the latter of which I saw used on MN tonight actually)

Whilst none of them are nice, it's not the same is it. There aren't blokes whose name is Gannon being treated differently just because of their name, or seeing memes and references to their actual name being spouted negatively.

[Chairbear]

gammon*

[kness]

@ForrestTrump It is not an internet only thing. Please read this article right through to the end www.pulsefm.ca/karens-united-facebook-page-calls-for-end-to-social-media-memes/

Women called Karen are literally being told by their employers to go by a different name at work. This is not just some internetty thing any more. It's causing real life harassment.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

We all know that 'Karen' is a way of victimising and silencing women. A woman stands up for herself? Call her a Karen and if she argues back, say that proves she's a Karen.

In a nutshell.

[Deliriumoftheendless]

Isn’t the thing about “pale, stale and male” in reference to organisations that employ white, middle aged men irrespective of their suitability rather than diversifying? It’s not directed at individuals.