Everyday Racism Instagram on "Karen"

[Mizzler]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CEpA-dlMjj_/?hl=en

I've been trying to learn more about race and racism since the BLM protest movement appeared and I'd been following this Instagram account as a way of trying to understand more about the issues involved.

This post has really troubled me though and I'm struggling to articulate why. I think it's because whilst I completely accept that black and minority ethnic women suffer great disadvantages in the UK, I'm very uncomfortable with the "Karen" meme. It strikes me as deeply misogynistic. In this post, they make reference to a "Karen" asking to speak to a manager as a way of asserting authority. Isn't that what women SHOULD be doing? Being assertive isn't the same as being aggressive, even if women behaving assertively is perceived as aggression by a patriarchal society.

I feel like I'm rambling here and I'd be very grateful for other people's thoughts.

[onlinelinda]

It's very school yard to name people as an insult. I assume only a certain kind of person does it.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

“Telling someone not to be a dick is really not the same at all as telling someone not to be a Dick.”

Yes it is. In both cases it’s telling someone they are acting rude and entitled. And it’s using a common name. Dick is a common name.
The fact it expanded two hundred years later to also mean a penis just makes it worse and longer lived than Karen.

“The word connoted a person of questionable character long before it became a nickname for the penis. For example, in the 1665 satire The English Rogue by Richard Head, an unsavory character is referred to as a "dick".....An 1869 slang dictionary offered definitions of dick including "a riding whip" and an abbreviation of dictionary, also noting that in the North Country, it was used as a verb to indicate that a policeman was eyeing the subject. The term came to be associated with the penis through usage by men in the military around the 1880s.”

[Icantreachthepretzels]

regarding Dick - just as many 'Fanny's have had their lives ruined in a similar way - and by ruined I mean, the nicknamed more or less died out and Richard and Frances resumed their real names.

So now Dick is analogous to Fanny ... that still leaves us one up on using women's names as insults over men's names. Karen stands alone.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

There are at least two real life women named Karen who have no problem with the insult.
edition.cnn.com/2020/05/30/us/karen-meme-trnd/index.html

Not sure they’d approve of everyone being offended on their behalf...
“"If you get offended by an archetype, that says more about your insecurities being a liberal ally, than it does about the people who use that word to describe an unjust situation."
In other words, you can be a Karen without being a "Karen."

[NiceGerbil]

The dick thing is so weak it's laughable.

As is the suggestion that white people in the UK are systematically oppressed due to their race

[PlanDeRaccordement]

@Icantreachthepretzels
Exactly, there is a long history of common names being used as insults.
There is Becky, Patty, Chad, Kyle, Tom, that come to mind in addition to the Dick, Fanny and Karen.

I’m sure someone could do an equality study...

[PlanDeRaccordement]

As is the suggestion that white people in the UK are systematically oppressed due to their race

Exactly! My first comment is that Karen is not racist. But some posters think it is oppressing white women!?!

[OneEpisode]

So PlanDeRaccordement disagrees with another mner, growing on a thread where the majority of posters agree Karen is being used as an insult, so Plan writes:
Karen, I am a woman and mother of four DC. I’d send you a WAP pic to prove it but I’m not a dick.

That is almost criminal harassment, surely? The WAP (genitals) picture, I mean? Though the Karen reference was clearly intended to offend the poster too..

[Railingsohno]

It’s morphed into a put down to (white) middle aged women. My sons have used it and got short shrift from me. Why no male equivalent? Because men are allowed to complain, be mouthy, opinionated ....

The Atlantic article is excellent! Thank you.

[Falleninwiththewrongcrowd]

"A Karen is a woman, typically middle aged, middle class and white ...
... The idea that it’s racist is extremely laughable!"

Cognitive dissonance much?

[Icantreachthepretzels]

There is Becky, Patty, Chad, Kyle, Tom, that come to mind in addition to the Dick, Fanny and Karen.

None of those have had such a vicious or a sudden treatment as Karen. 'Chad's' have not been tailed home by strangers and filmed hysterical with fear on their driveways in order to whip up a frenzy of hatred and sell merch on the internet.

I've never seen Tom merch, or Kyle merch. I don't know what they mean.

The idea that sometimes names get used as insults does not make turning Karen into a meme OK. One bad thing does not mean no one can complain about anything else. if the Tom's, Kyle's and Chad's want to complain, I'm happy to listen. I don't know what their names signify and have never heard of them as anything beyond proper nouns (apart from Chad - but being a Chad isn't actually a bad thing, it's the name incels use for men who can get dates) but nevertheless they're free to complain and I would take it seriously.

In this case, women are being hounded for being 'Karens', this makes actual people named Karen fearful and embarrassed and is actively making them keep quiet in public. In this particular case, the name calling is being used for sexist purposes to ridicule women of a certain age who dares to somehow draw attention to herself. Any woman - and particularly any Karen - is not wrong to be offended by that.

[NotTerfNorCis]

We all know that 'Karen' is a way of victimising and silencing women. A woman stands up for herself? Call her a Karen and if she argues back, say that proves she's a Karen.

[Railingsohno]

Karen, I am a woman and mother of four DC. I’d send you a WAP pic to prove it but I’m not a dick.*

Wow don’t know whether to laugh or cry. What’s a WAP?!

One question for you a fellow mother of boys - how would you feel if your boys used Karen as a put down to older women who have complained. Mine have done that and I tried to explain to them that it was sexist, they wouldn’t criticise a man for complaining. I have to be careful not to preach though or they switch off!

[NotTerfNorCis]

I’d send you a WAP pic to prove it

??? I had to look up what that meant. Can't imagine a woman writing that somehow.

[Dervel]

In defence of the Karen like behaviour for just a moment. I have worked retail before, and I think for some women it takes a lot for them to wind up to asserting themselves to make a complaint or to just generally stand up for themselves, and because they do it so rarely they might stray into slight overkill in how they come across. However I’d say 8/10 times if you listen, identify and eliminate the problem they’ll actually end up apologising for coming across aggressively in the first place. The remaining portion who just really are a pain are no more or less common than men who behave similarly.

I think the only time I have had a manager needing be summoned was an absolute dingbat of a man who had claimed to have ordered a product with us (he didn’t), swore blind that he had. Ranted at me for 5 mins, manager failed to placate him either then as he said “I’ll never shop at again!” Whilst flouncing off, all became clear as the store name he used was our competitor company a floor above us in the shopping centre! Upon us very kindly informing him of his mistake he walked off looking very sheepish. No apology though!

[Wondersense]

@Yoshinori

To be honest, it’s a very Karen thing to oppose the Karen thing.

A Karen is a woman, typically middle aged, middle class and white who does any form the following:

• asks to see the manager as a way to belittle shop assistants just doing their jobs/ as a way to “report” shop assistants for not doing what they want

• reports BME people for doing ordinary things e.g. Permit Patty, the woman who reported a black girl for selling bottled water etc

• participated in racial microagressions e.g. touching black woman’s hair

• is an anti-vaccer

The idea that it’s racist is extremely laughable ! 😂

Claiming the Karen meme is a racist thing is ... a Karen move.

It might have started off that way, and might gave had cultural relevance in America where it's a middle class name, but what it has spiralled into is just another way to tell any woman to shut the fuck up and get back into the kitchen. Ok Karen is the 'Ok luv' 'Ok darling' - a patronising throwback to demean women whilst scoring social points.

It's about shaming women. Shaming them for daring to ask for a manager if they get shitty servuce (I used to work in low paid customer service jobs for years). It's now ridiculous how broad the term has become. It's used against absolutely everyone. By some people's definitions, some BLM protestors are nothing more than 'Karens' themselves! Waving placards! Demanding more.

On a Facebook group I was in a while ago, men started to make inappropriate comments on a young woman's photographs. Another woman said 'That's a bit inappropriate' . That's all she said. For that, she got an 'Ok Karen' to shut her up and remind her of her place.

[OneEpisode]

I think the WAP reference is quite clearly as in the Cardi B song. But the “4 dc” are in bed so Plan is on mumsnet thinking about pics of genitals?

[Wondersense]

@TweeBree

The only people I see still using 'Karen' are white misogynist men who are thrilled at having found a new way to openly attack women.

Indeed.

[NiceGerbil]

I definitely find it weird that two posters came on to say it's not racist, when the complaint was is was sexist and ageist.

As far as I can see only serenity seemed to indicate after those posts that she thought it was racist. Take it up with her.

[Wondersense]

@PlanDeRaccordement

There are also millions of men called “Dick” and they’ve been bearing the brunt of that trauma for decades. Don’t see the “don’t be a dick” being whined about so much.
Language evolves, who cares about Karens? I don’t.

Oh God. Bring out the violins. Maybe it would bother you a lot more if you seen the way it's being used.

[Wondersense]

@Dervel

In defence of the Karen like behaviour for just a moment. I have worked retail before, and I think for some women it takes a lot for them to wind up to asserting themselves to make a complaint or to just generally stand up for themselves, and because they do it so rarely they might stray into slight overkill in how they come across. However I’d say 8/10 times if you listen, identify and eliminate the problem they’ll actually end up apologising for coming across aggressively in the first place. The remaining portion who just really are a pain are no more or less common than men who behave similarly.

I think the only time I have had a manager needing be summoned was an absolute dingbat of a man who had claimed to have ordered a product with us (he didn’t), swore blind that he had. Ranted at me for 5 mins, manager failed to placate him either then as he said “I’ll never shop at again!” Whilst flouncing off, all became clear as the store name he used was our competitor company a floor above us in the shopping centre! Upon us very kindly informing him of his mistake he walked off looking very sheepish. No apology though!

I've worked for years in customer service. We had about 50 / 50 men & women. The worst calls were from men. On the times that I was on a call for 30-45mins, having someone whine away at me for something that the customer signed up for, it was a man. I can tell you now that no woman ever came in specifically touch themselves in front of staff and indulge their fetish (like we had to endure). We never had to get security to keep an eye on a woman around small children. It wasn't a woman who asked me if I was married about 2mins of speaking to me over the phone. It wasn't a woman who called us up 5 mins before a major event started and asked me to postpone it until his important fucking arrival.......with over 2 thousand people waiting......just for him!!!!!!!

Both male & female customers could be nasty, but male customers were more entitled and more aggressive. They are more used to getting their own way and are encourgaged and rewarded to be bold, confident, to take space and own it. Yet you don't see men shamed for asking for the manager do you?? Funny that!!

My mum is too shy to send food back even if it'a cold. She never, ever complains about bad service. Thanks to the Karen bullshit, women like her are further shamed into submission.

[NiceGerbil]

I've worked in retail as well and the men were worse.

[Wondersense]

@shivermetimbers77

The Karen meme is just another way of dismissing middle aged women, and trying to make them (even more) invisible. I hate it. I completely agree that rude people belittling shop workers is not ok (and have been on the receiving end plenty of times), but the Karen thing just means that ANY middle aged woman who tries to disagree or object to anything can be instantly dismissed. The worst sort of stereotyping. And the kicker is that complaining about the Karen meme is used as evidence of your inherent Karen-ness, and around we go in a depressing, misogynistic loop.

Yes. I mean how fucking dare women opposite misogyny eh? We all need to put up with crap service in shops, be meek, be mild, be subservient and do as we're told.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Having worked in a call centre hellmouth only a man ever threatened to come to the call centre and beat me up. Same with every job when I've been physically threatened (and working in housing, there's been a few). Always men.

But Karens, right, bitches

[SheepandCow]

It's not even an especially white name in the UK. I've known several black Karens. What they have in common with white Karens is their sex and age.

Btw I was reading the other day about black women in the US being accused (by black men) of being aggressive. For simply being assertive and standing up for themselves.