Exasperated and worried.

[FloralTeacup]

I've followed a few threads on here around gender, the trans agenda, JK Rowling, etc. It's been the only place to keep me sane!

I was truly (albeit, naively), shocked at the negative, and often violent responses to JK Rowling speaking out in June. I honestly didn't realise that so many people believe that being gender critical is transphobic or hateful. It wasn't until I spoke to a good friend about it, mentioning that I disagreed with all the vitriol towards Rowling that I realised that people like me, and those of you on here, are actually in the minority.

I feel afraid to publicly speak up about the harmful agenda of many TRAs. The blatant misogyny, disregard for women's safety, dismissal of women's rights, and even safeguarding of children, are just a few things that deeply concern me.

What can we do to be heard? Are we allowed to express our views without being reported for hate speech?! (Meanwhile, TRAs spew all sorts of threats and hate speech, which is apparently deemed as ok).

Honestly I don’t think we’re in the minority, must people have no idea eg that the vast majority of TW retain Male genitalia or that we’re meant to accept TW are literally women and so it’s fine for them to be in female prisons for example or for them to play rugby against women

Most ppl pay scant attention and think we’re talking about a tiny handful of men who’ve undergone a long & painful process of surgery & hormones, they have no idea that self ID means somone must be accepted as a woman just because they say so

Most ppl will not have read what JKR wrote and just gone off what their friends have said or the odd news headline

It’s why sunlight is so important

@Kit19

Good points. I wish more people realised that while we don't object to a transwoman who has committed themselves to surgery and hormones, we do object to any Tom, Dick or Harry choosing to self-identify as a woman.

I don’t think we are in minority. I spoke to a woman at work who is a huge Potter fan (I was discussing the Ickabog being free online) and she raised “all these things people are saying about her” and expressed disbelief that anyone would take against what she’d said. She then said “she’s a lovely woman.” Ive also heard parents at the school gates discussing new Potter books (I assume new editions? I’m not a Potter fan) and they seemed excited. No mention of bigotry. Plus her books are still flying off the shelves so, no I think most think it’s all a bit confusing and are keeping out of it.

I’m not sure how you spin “I know and love trans people” as transphobic but hey ho, brave new world an all that.

I get the impression that many people are choosing to keep out of it. That, or they don’t fully understand the issue!

It’s nice that you know people who are equally puzzled by the hate towards JK Rowling @Deliriumoftheendless. I suppose I might feel in the minority because I’m mid-twenties, so a lot of people on my SM are in the “woke” category.

that I realised that people like me, and those of you on here, are actually in the minority

No. We are not. The people in the minority are the fanatics who want to take a battering ram to sex segregated spaces, to deny the existence of external biological reality and enforce Newspeak dictionary revisions of words everyone understands. The Robespierre faction is in the minority. And the resistance to their totalitarian dictates is increasing every day.

It wasn't until I spoke to a good friend about it, mentioning that I disagreed with all the vitriol towards Rowling that I realised that people like me, and those of you on here, are actually in the minority.

I assure you this is not true. I have spoken to many many friends about this-- not one agrees with the trashing of JKR. One that had disagreed with me in the past about the threat to women's rights and the safeguarding of children ("why can't you just be kind?") watched what happened to JKR and now agrees with me. I hear that happened to a lot of people who would have called themselves "allies".

I was out with five friends last week. I knew the views of three of them. One of the other two brought up JKR, was definitely on her side, and he wondered how any of this can be happening in a sane world. And yes, every person there disagreed with the hate directed at JKR or any other person for stating such clearly reasonable views (not hate speech, no matter what Twitter says). We are not the minority.

I suppose I might feel in the minority because I’m mid-twenties, so a lot of people on my SM are in the “woke” category

My friends are 35 and up, so yes not uni generation. But my two mid-twenties DD are not in the "woke category", happily.

Ah, I’m sorry for suggesting us being in the minority! It’s really comforting to know otherwise, and given me a bit of a boost.

I am surrounded by a lot of “woke” types on SM, so their views are skewing my overall outlook. The discussion I had with my friend turned into a bit of a disagreement, where we eventually agreed to disagree for the sake of not compromising out friendship.

My impression is the majority of people won’t say what they think and will leave it up to loud mouths to sort it out. I have five very vocal TWAW friends and one very vocal GC friend and the rest give you that look (you know that look 😳) if it’s mentioned. I don’t believe my views are in the minority, from speaking to people face to face. It’s just all a bit “don’t mention the war”.

@FloralTeacup

Ah, I’m sorry for suggesting us being in the minority! It’s really comforting to know otherwise, and given me a bit of a boost.

I am surrounded by a lot of “woke” types on SM, so their views are skewing my overall outlook. The discussion I had with my friend turned into a bit of a disagreement, where we eventually agreed to disagree for the sake of not compromising out friendship.

The best antidote is to have a look at media sources you don't usually frequent. Maybe the Spectator, Unherd, have a look at Douglas Murray, James Lindsay. Then you will see that perhaps the views your friend is suggesting are mainstream are nothing of the sort.

I suppose I might feel in the minority because I’m mid-twenties, so a lot of people on my SM are in the “woke” category

I'm 27, and there's only 1 person in my friendship group that has been sucked into the whole ideology. The rest of us are completely wtf about it all.

Not everyone in our age range is a wokester, I promise.

And don't forget, social media is just a 'look at meeeeeee' opportunity for a lot of people. Full of posturing and virtue signalling for a quick pat on the back and easy likes. A cheap ego boost. Not an accurate portrayal of real life at all.

@yourhairiswinterfire

Thank you for your wisdom!

I don’t dare bring up the topic with anyone other than my partner and sister. It’s difficult because it’s a topic I’m passionate about, and want to talk about!

I think most people feel sympathy for trans people and want them to be happy.

I also think most people don’t realise how much some people on Twitter hate women and want to use this sympathy to abuse us.

I’m not sure what most people think of as a trans person is the same as the most vocal supporters of trans rights.

Of course we aren't in the minority. Human society has been built around the reality of there being 2 biological sexes since the dawn of history. It still matters today because the reality of life for one sex is very different to the reality experienced by the other.

Society hasn't manged to deal with some very basic issues such as domestic violence (which costs the UK over £60 billion a year), or maternal death rates being worse for black women. Northern Ireland allowed self ID before abortion, and still does not have a dedicated mother and baby unit for women who have post partum psychosis.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-53006855

I don't think we're a minority of the population, FloralTeacup. We may seem like it because most people think transgenderism is the modern version of gay rights, seeking fair play for a oppressed minority who pose no threat to anyone.

This myth has been very successfully peddled by transgenderist organisations such as Stonewall.

Most people think it involves a small number of men who genuinely believe they were born in the wrong body, and are desperate enough to have their male genitals removed.

When you point out that the vast majority of transwomen keep their male genitals, and that transwomen commit sexual offences at the same rate as non-trans men, people tend to change their view.

People don't generally agree with self-identification, which isn't yet legal, but many organisations behave as if it is. Self-ID would give every man access to every women's single-sex facility, such as toilets and changing rooms.

People who want to look 'woke' at all costs, especially on social media, will insist that transwomen are women. But most others, when they realise this isn't a helpless and oppressed minority, tend to support women's rights to privacy and safety.

We are only in the minority because we know what’s going on and most don’t. That’s why they work so hard with abuse and threats to shut us up - heaven forbid people actually hear what’s going on and make up their own minds.

You only have to read the thread on AIBU about the Proud Trust - people are initially cautious, think it must be a storm in a tea cup, nobody is really using taxpayers money to encourage girls into anal sex. Initially a few comments of ‘prude’ etc and then with more sunlight comes horror and then anger.

It’s why I always post on these issues on AIBU if it comes up. People don’t know. They need to know.

[quote Thelnebriati]Of course we aren't in the minority. Human society has been built around the reality of there being 2 biological sexes since the dawn of history. It still matters today because the reality of life for one sex is very different to the reality experienced by the other.

Society hasn't manged to deal with some very basic issues such as domestic violence (which costs the UK over £60 billion a year), or maternal death rates being worse for black women. Northern Ireland allowed self ID before abortion, and still does not have a dedicated mother and baby unit for women who have post partum psychosis.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-53006855[/quote]

NI doesn't have Self ID.

I obviously object more to an intact male claiming to be a woman and coming into female spaces. But none of them are women. None. On any level. I don’t feel any need to dissemble about this fact.

Once COVID is over and sports are back to full steam, start paying attention to women's and especially teen girls' sports. Pay attention to the dads who watch their daughters lose competitions to male bodies. Most people aren't paying attention to TRAs unless they are directly impacted by regressive rules or policies. I personally hope that all trans people live happy, healthy and safe lives and truly hope they can feel accepted in^ society but not at the expense of women and girls.^ I particularly care about the female NB and trans men who seem left out of a lot of this conversation. And I care a lot about regressive stereotypes being fed to girl teenagers (especially lesbian teenagers)- I want desperately for young women who don't fit a heteronormative stereotype to feel they can be themselves without harming their bodies. Most people care about girls harming themselves but aren't connecting the dots to TRA.

I know how you feel. It might feel like you're in the minority but I really don't think you are. There are some people who haven't really properly engaged with the issue. They might see the likes of Paris Lees on a Pantene advert and think 'Good on 'em' - they look like a good looking woman on the screen and they look like they'd be a laugh. Or see Munroe Bergdorf and think 'how glamorous' what's everyone getting their knickers in a twist for.

When I first became aware of this issue (but obviously not really 'aware') I thought back to all the times I'd crowded round the mirror of the ladies in a club with gay male friends and no-one batted an eye-lid (or if they did I didn't notice because I was too wrapped up in my own world) I couldn't get exercised over the toilet issue.

But then I grew up and had experiences and had kids and needed to lean on other women for support and began to value the spaces I used for support that were entirely female. I then began to notice how all of a sudden there was a resurgence of this restrictive 'gender' nonsense that seemed to be going backwards in terms of how 'male' and 'females' were expected to behave. On the surface it seemed to say 'be who you want to be' but scratch that surface and you were confronted with painfully archaic stereotypes.

And then i became aware of the piss-takers. And then I became aware of how I couldn't talk freely about the piss-takers. And that I couldn't talk freely on a forum like Mumsnet (although I am still grateful that I can come here and vent even though they've had to tow the line to a degree and police our speech for fear of being shut down)

I have days when I could and have cried. I have days when I worry about my teenage daughter and how she might be treated for having views that don't precisely chime with some of her friends who are keen to express their gender rigidity, sorry, 'fluidity'. To declare yourself straight, lesbian or even bisexual is deemed to be prudish and exclusionary amongst some her friends (who are 12/13).

There are days when I want to give up. To give in. And I step away from MN for a few days. But there's always some outrageous, utter piss-take that drives me back and persuades me to keep on supporting the cause of supporting women. It's my daughter who will bear the brunt of any negative changes and I can't have that on my conscience.

Sorry if that hasn't exactly made you feel any less worried or exasperated

@Sheheshehe

Don’t be sorry! You’ve made some excellent points that sum up the issue well. I absolutely sympathise with your concern for your children. What with talk of secondary schools introducing gender-neutral toilets, insisting on everyone introducing themselves with their pronouns...

It’s beginning to emerge in the workplace, too. Stories of employees being required to sign off their emails with their pronouns make me laugh.

I think one of the unintended side benefits of World Rugby's recent stance is that it's bringing the issue much more into mainstream thinking. When I first looked into this and started talking about it, both DH and I had the sort of, "well, look, if a man is so desperate to be a woman that he cuts off his penis, then frankly, I think we can be supportive" attitude. Then you start looking around and you realise that the vast bulk of transwomen do nothing of the sort. And half the time they don't even bother to present as women even some of the time. And suddenly you're sitting there thinking, "WTAF?"

And then the issue with women's rugby comes along and every person who has ever played or watched rugby sits back and is like, "Well obviously a male body is going to annilate women on the field. Doh" and wham, we see things starting to actually go into the general society's consciousness.

Needless to say, DH and I are cheering World Rugby on all the way! I mean, DS is 9 - admittedly, he's big boned, tall etc - and he can already almost beat me up if he gives it a real go. I have to tell him to be careful when we're playing sometimes. And a lot of the men like DH who played rugby have spent their lives fully understanding they're bigger and stronger than the women in their lives and they need to be considerate as a result.