Which spaces do non-binary people use?

[BewaretheIckabog]

I’m sure this will have been covered before but ...

GC people are happy to support a campaign for third spaces. I know it’s not always practical, cost-effective etc but in principle single-sex spaces for men and women and third spaces would be good. When it comes to toilets in small restaurants, cafes etc full enclosed unisex would work as they do for disabled.

It seems the TRA lobby are more interested in opening up single-sex to people by gender identity. Third spaces would not be inclusive and would be othering.

As the alphabet+ is so inclusive and caring surely they should be campaigning for third spaces to stand with non-binary people. Trans women and TRAs would then be able to us those spaces without outing themselves , they would be boldly standing up (to pee) and showing solidarity with NBs.

I know toilets and changing rooms are a small part of the single-sex spaces but if Jameela Jamal, Emma Watson, the TRAs, all gender fluid, NBs, trans people and all those who support mixed sex spaces or aren’t bothered by the genitals of those peeing next to them use those spaces there will be no problem.

In my experience however, most people are pretty understanding re. children in the changing rooms - most mums understand.

This is a topic that has come up frequently on mumsnet.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2995768-Children-of-the-opposite-sex-in-changing-rooms

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1280819-Fed-up-with-boys-in-womens-changing-rooms-at-pool

Not all changing room users are mothers, and not all mothers are happy to share a changing room with male 'tweens'.

The problem is that there is an overlap between the age at which a child might still reasonably need to be accompanied, and the age at which people might feel uncomfortable changing in their presence, particularly if the child looks old for their age or has SN.

To accommodate the needs of both users you need both unisex and single sex provision.

It works the other way too. Men don't necessarily want to take their daughters into men's changing rooms.

The sidetrack into children could go on forever, threads about that usually do!

We're talking about adult men here.

I’m so confused about non binary. Do they often present as the opposite sex (the only non binary person I know of is taking treatment to masculinise their body)? Or do they more often present in an ambiguous way? And if so, how does that more usually manifest?
Hope this doesn’t become another derail but I assume it is useful for everyone to understand the people that the question refers to (unless it’s just me who has no idea).

Gardenbird, I think it depends who's talking as to what "non-binary" actually means.

Some people use it to describe anyone who doesn't identify as wholly male or female. But technically, they're referring to male or female as gender identity labels rather than male or female biological sex (because if we're looking at sex and not gender identity then people would be categorised quite differently in accordance with established single-sex spaces). So when non-binary is used in this sense, it includes anyone who doesn't identify as a male or female gender, and includes people (like me) who don't identify as any gender - if pressed I would class myself as agender because I don't identify as being any gender, although it would be rare for me to define myself by the absence of a concept in everyday conversation (in the same way an atheist would only need to identify as such if everyone else is talking about their belief in god, but they don't necessarily have a strong attachment to the identity of 'atheist' outside of a theistic community). But it also includes the people who consciously identify as non-binary specifically.

When those people who consciously identify as non-binary use the term, I feel it has a more specific meaning to them and seems to refer to themselves and others who feel that a positive part of their actual identity is neither male nor female, somewhere in between or both. So it's not just that they're non-binary compared to everyone else who is either male or female, but that they are something distinct from male and female but substantial in itself.

In either sense if the word, though, there are as many different ways for a non-binary gender identity to manifest as there are people in the world.

So in short, no-one knows how to spot a non-binary person, it is the presence of gender identity and the absence of gender identity, it is at once important and insignificant, and the concept is actually perfectly encapsulated by the feel of a stylised perfume advert.

As an architect we now often see toilets and changing rooms designed with 3 spaces. 1 unisex, 1 men, 1 women. A recent survey saw increase in the use of unisex which coincides with the growing number of people choosing to transition and allies, those who are not bothered, etc.
Many restaurants, bars, workspaces only have a single toilet which is used by all 3 groups and has to be lockable.

Women need more toilet facilities than men though.

I think the old threads about swimming pool changing rooms are relevant because:

1). They demonstrate that people need unisex facilities for a variety of reasons.

2). They demonstrate that many women need and want to protect single sex facilities, and they were talking about this long before anyone suggested self ID.

@DaisiesandButtercups

I agree 100% with SomeDyke, Alabamawhirly1, and PaleBlueMoonlight about the importance and convenience of women’s communal changing rooms for being comfortable with our bodies and for managing small children. All the leisure centres around here have men’s, women’s and family changing rooms and have had those three options for many years. Are we just particularly fortunate in my area?

All the pools in my area have family changing rooms, and that looks after the problem of mixed sex adult/child.

Shared women’s changing rooms is an ever diminishing facility, but they should be a key part of everyday life.

I agree 100%. I’m sick of being expected to give up anything that a man wants to take from me.