Which spaces do non-binary people use?

[BewaretheIckabog]

I’m sure this will have been covered before but ...

GC people are happy to support a campaign for third spaces. I know it’s not always practical, cost-effective etc but in principle single-sex spaces for men and women and third spaces would be good. When it comes to toilets in small restaurants, cafes etc full enclosed unisex would work as they do for disabled.

It seems the TRA lobby are more interested in opening up single-sex to people by gender identity. Third spaces would not be inclusive and would be othering.

As the alphabet+ is so inclusive and caring surely they should be campaigning for third spaces to stand with non-binary people. Trans women and TRAs would then be able to us those spaces without outing themselves , they would be boldly standing up (to pee) and showing solidarity with NBs.

I know toilets and changing rooms are a small part of the single-sex spaces but if Jameela Jamal, Emma Watson, the TRAs, all gender fluid, NBs, trans people and all those who support mixed sex spaces or aren’t bothered by the genitals of those peeing next to them use those spaces there will be no problem.

@SomeDyke

to replace sex segregation with individual privacy. Except I value the company of others of my sex, in changing rooms and shared saunas, for example. Where the full range of female bodies is an important experience for other females. From school changing rooms, to pool changing areas, as I have got older, the experience of seeing other females happy with their bodies, however old they are, and however their bodies have changed. There is nothing for older women to be ashamed of, and like the current openness around prosthetic limbs etc, 'individual privacy' is not always a good thing. Yes, a 'third space', the privacy for those who want it, but don't impose it on the rest of us.

I bang on about this quite a lot and am so glad to see that others find it important. Whilst young women will almost always use single changing rooms at swimming pools, they will still walk through the changing rooms where women are changing. They need this. They need to see the full range of women’s bodies. They need to see women who are NOT ashamed of their bodies. We need to counter the porn imagery of bodies and there are so few ways of doing it. Shared women’s changing rooms is an ever diminishing facility, but they should be a key part of everyday life. As for toilets, I have also long written about them as an important every day single sex space where women can be sure (it should be able to be sure) that they will be surrounded only by women. Isolating women away from each other and other women’s bodies by separating us all into one person bubbles may be preferred by some (maybe many) women, as we have been socialised to be ashamed of our bodies) but encouraging ever more separation is moving even further in the wrong direction.

@MrsCollinssettled

The easiest and cheapest option is to make all male facilities unisex and keep female and disabled facilities for the people they were intended for. It would also potentially have the advantage of making men behave better towards people who don't conform to a traditional male stereotype - which at the end of the day is what trans people say is the problem of using male facilities.

I agree with this

Private spaces would be fine by me and I find the idea that we need to force girls to see a range of female bodies rather off . A naff solution to the problem of unrealistic media

Absolutely Longines - trans organisation myumbrella have identified that the total list consists of 371 genders so they all need to be considered. I assume that is a central register somewhere where the genders are listed and updated as new ones come to light.
We must consider how each gender can be given equal treatment in the relevant situations.

It is not seeking to force anything, but rather normalise it. Like it used to be.

Longines - but the needs you list - disabilities, are real, physical needs beyond the individual’s control.

I am prepared to believe that extreme gender dysphoria is outside of an individual's control and prevents some people from accessing single sex public toilets.

Once you start policing what is within an individual's control, you are going down the route of saying that women who have suffered trauma or have particular religious beliefs just have to 'get over it'.

I think the solution is legislation to protect single sex spaces and more unisex toilets. I don't think the cost is prohibitive, if access to toilets is prioritised.

(Unfortunately I suspect the reason they aren't is that so many men are happy to urinate without a toilet...)

Mixed sex toilets and changing rooms, even if they're single occupancy, will end up with hidden spy cams in them. This has already been born out by many statistics and to think otherwise is dangerously naive. And you can bet that they won't be being put there by people desperate to perve over our "female minds" 🙄. We also need sanitary bins, which again trials of this model prove end up being swiftly vandalised by men or hunted through by fetishists. So no, mixed sex single occupancy isn't going to work for women. The only people who would say that this protects the privacy and dignity of "everyone" are those who are seeing the situation through the lens of their own deeply entrenched male privaledge, their own ignorance of what it really means to live in a sexist world as a woman, and their belief that males are the default human whose experience in the world can be seemlessly generalised onto females. Single sex isn't perfect but it's the best women have found to protect us from men. Males dictating to females which spaces and services specifically created to meet their best interests should be allowed to remain, and in what form, is male supremacy. Maybe try using your "female mind" to actually empathise with women. Maybe try using your privaledge to support our liberation rather than worsening our oppression by removing our safeguards for your own convenience.

In my experience (woke university) female non-binary people, without exception, use the women's facilities.

Male non-binary people also seem to use the female facilities, citing fear of going into the men's.

The last event I was at before lockdown had unbelievable women's queues. A line of women of various shapes and sizes, interspersed with a significant number of blue/long haired males snaked around the foyer, while the men as usual went straight in and peed.

Unless of course you are saying that we should be protecting women from seeing the bodies of other women?

So no, mixed sex single occupancy isn't going to work for women.

The problem is that for many women it does work. I have worked in loads of offices with single occupancy loos, and many cafes only have single occupancy loos.

I would also rather use a mixed sex changing room because I have opposite sex children.

The only argument that makes sense is that in some circumstances single sex facilities and services are necessary, and provision should be protected in law.

If you argue that all services must be single sex, you will always get push back from people who want to use unisex/mixed sex services.

The easiest and cheapest option is to make all male facilities unisex and keep female and disabled facilities for the people they were intended for. It would also potentially have the advantage of making men behave better towards people who don't conform to a traditional male stereotype - which at the end of the day is what trans people say is the problem of using male facilities

Except this opens up all sorts of uncomfortable possibilities for non binary people because they are still male and female even of they don't like it. And whether they want our support or value our take on things or not, we need to stop them from being put in dangerous positions. Like being female and amongst naked men. Eveb if nine of those men have any intention of being dodgy, the next male she ends up being around whilst vulnerable might not be so pure. And how will she know when its time to back out if shes used ti being around half naked men.

Most successful derail ever?

If you argue that all services must be single sex, you will always get push back from people who want to use unisex/mixed sex services

But when women answer surveys most want to have separate spaces for changing rooms/bathrooms because they feel more secure from male violence, and it is a democracy, you have to do what's best for the majority.
As a single mum with two boys I never felt a dilemma as to where to take my son's. Of course when they were little they would come with me to the ladies or women's changing rooms and no one cared.

I'm saying there should be a third mixed sex single occupancy option for those who want it merrymouse. Some women will be OK with it, many won't. The ones who won't are likely to be women with additional vulnerabilities, such as a history of sexual trauma or those who observe certain faiths. Single sex male, single sex female, mixed sex single occupancy (Inc baby changing facilities), and disabled, would be genuinely inclusive of everybodies real world needs, in the reality everyone actually lives in. It wouldn't validate anybodies made up subjective interpretation of reality though which is why TRAs will never campaign for it.

And whether they want our support or value our take on things or not, we need to stop them from being put in dangerous positions.

Many women are quite happy to use unisex sex facilities. I have been using unisex faciliities for decades, and I have never seen a stranger of either sex naked.

To answers the Ops actual question though I would guess that most non binary people use the female facilities. Female non binary people because they know its the safety's option for them, and male non binary people because they want to let the world know how very special and unique they are. A man wearing lipstick using the mens? Unthinkable 🙄

@ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings

To answers the Ops actual question though I would guess that most non binary people use the female facilities. Female non binary people because they know its the safety's option for them, and male non binary people because they want to let the world know how very special and unique they are. A man wearing lipstick using the mens? Unthinkable 🙄

I think this probably answers it! But without being unduly flippant, a NB may well feel unsafe going into the men's toilet. Interesting point about the plurality of female bodies made above, PaleBlueMoonlight when I was younger (and my body in better shape) I was hideously self conscious. I would have only changed in a cubicle, now, much less so. My body is much less aesthetically pleasing (to the prevailing standards) than it used to be, but I am much more at home in it.

But when women answer surveys most want to have separate spaces for changing rooms/bathrooms because they feel more secure from male violence, and it is a democracy, you have to do what's best for the majority.

I'm not arguing against provision of single sex spaces - I am saying that some people are genuinely happy to use mixed sex spaces, and that the argument for single sex spaces is weakened if this isn't acknowledged.

"Does your daughter have a right not to see a penis?" doesn't have much affect on someone who has been using mixed sex changing rooms for decades and has never seen anyone's genitals. (I know you haven't argued this, but it is a common argument on twitter).

It's better to explain that some women have clear reasons to need single sex spaces, irrespective of whether anyone else feels comfortable in a mixed sex space.

(I was NOT happy sending my 8 year old son off to a completely different changing room in another part of the building when we went swimming. and many threads on mumsnet illustrate that I am not alone.)

@OldCrone @Datun and @MiladyRenata 100% agree. I have no problem with anyone being what they want to be, if someone wants to dress up as a unicorn everyday and say they live in la la land crsck on if that makes a person happy. BUT don't force that on the youth of today. I don't want my daughter getting dressed in a changing room with boys, regardless of how they identify. You're born either male or female, so i guess use the facilities for that gender or use a unisex one.

I should apologise if the unicorn comment came across rude, what I mean is I have no issue with personal lifestyle choices but when it has an impact on the wider community we need to be considerate of the general consensus on the matter as well as the potential safety of young people.

I imagine a lot of predators will take advantage of this new way of thinking and prey on vulnerable people where there are no cameras for obvious reasons. It makes me feel very uncomfortable.

(I was NOT happy sending my 8 year old son off to a completely different changing room in another part of the building when we went swimming. and many threads on mumsnet illustrate that I am not alone.)
why did you feel the need to do that though Merrymouse? - as has been stated many times on this thread, it is totally acceptable to include children of both sexes in the women's changing rooms until you feel that the boys are old enough to feel safe in the Men's. Women understand the potential risks to unaccompanied children in the Men's changing rooms.

it is totally acceptable to include children of both sexes in the women's changing rooms until you feel that the boys are old enough to feel safe in the Men's.

The sign on the door. As with most single sex changing rooms an age limit was specified.

The sign on the door. As with most single sex changing rooms an age limit was specified.

oh. I've never seen that anywhere I've ever used. The only stipulation that I've seen is that children under the age of 8 must be accompanied by an adult (no mention of which sex) but maybe it is different in your area. In my experience however, most people are pretty understanding re. children in the changing rooms - most mums understand.

I agree 100% with SomeDyke, Alabamawhirly1, and PaleBlueMoonlight about the importance and convenience of women’s communal changing rooms for being comfortable with our bodies and for managing small children. All the leisure centres around here have men’s, women’s and family changing rooms and have had those three options for many years. Are we just particularly fortunate in my area?

I thought 11 was usually the cut off for boys to go into the men's - you could probably allow up to 13 if the boy was particularly vulnerable.

But most boys wouldn't want to change with their mum at that age anyway and are more likely to be out with mates.