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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

No evidence women at greater risk w/ transinclusion

72 replies

Lookingforastronauts · 01/09/2020 15:32

www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/foi-eir-release/2020/01/foi-202000011201/documents/foi-202000011201-document-5---earlier-version-of-literature-review/foi-202000011201-document-5---earlier-version-of-literature-review/govscot%3Adocument/FOI-202000011201%2BDocument%2B5%2B-%2BEarlier%2BVersion%2Bof%2BLiterature%2BReview.pdf

In this document it states that there is no evidence that women are at greater risk if transwomen are included in their spaces/facilities.

Is this so? Does anyone have any evidence or links to the contrary? I'm having a discussion and they've refered to this as evidence that I'm just a nasty hysterical bitch. Not their words to be fair. I'm sorry I know this is lazy to drop this and hope someone can assist, but if anyone can please do! Tia

OP posts:
Escapeplanning · 02/09/2020 00:05

www.bristol.ac.uk/law/people/peter-r-dunne/index.html

Escapeplanning · 02/09/2020 00:09

He also works for the same chambers as Allison Bailey and Alex Sharpe.

quixote9 · 02/09/2020 07:07

There's a great long thread on this here very board: It Will Never Happen: Resource Thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

It'll take hours just to read through the thread and many of the posts are links to evidence.

merrymouse · 02/09/2020 07:27

So, are we talking a male who has had full GRS and has been living 'as a woman' for years, or are we talking a bloke who has simple declared 'I identify as female'?

The men who concern me are those who would say “you can’t say that I don’t identify as female so you can’t ask me to leave”. Nobody has explained what a service provider could do in this situation.

midgebabe · 02/09/2020 08:05

@334bu

Think you mixed me up with someone ?

334bu · 02/09/2020 08:56

@midgebabe. I realise now that when copying and pasting CharleyParley's post out of context it might appear that you are the person, who posted about the Massachusetts' report and the person to whom CharleyParley was replying. My apologies .
I won't post the actual poster's name as I don't think I can stand another twenty odd pages of "discussion. "

MichelleofzeResistance · 02/09/2020 16:17

So, are we talking a male who has had full GRS and has been living 'as a woman' for years, or are we talking a bloke who has simple declared 'I identify as female'?

In practice, there is absolutely no difference between the two.

No identification can be requested.

Huge fits are thrown if any attempt is made to gatekeep in order for the care, protection and dignity of female people in the facilities

Any male just by the act of walking into a female facility has to be regarded as self declaring by doing so, and females are expected to accept that a self declared person may have a beard and be fully male presenting.

So the answer, for the needs and rights of female people, has to therefore be no to any of them. No males in female only spaces. Add mixed sex spaces by all means, add more provision for those males who don't want to use male spaces, but this is unacceptable dumping on and exploitation of female people by male people who frankly couldn't care less so long as they get exactly what they want.

DanaBarrett · 02/09/2020 20:22

The paper by Gottschalk is very interesting:
core.ac.uk/download/pdf/213002043.pdf

Conclusion
This article does not seek to prove that MTFs are women, or that they are not women. That is the crux of the ‘Great Trans Debate’ and the subject of another study. This article does however argue that the life experiences of women born and raised female and the experiences of MTFs, born and raised male, differ significantly and that male dominance and female submission is institutionalised in the socialisation experience. MTFs have had male socialisation, whether or not they felt comfortable in their assigned gender roles.
This article acknowledges that MTFs have special needs and equal rights before the law. However in the case of women-only space and in the current social and legal context, protecting the rights of one minority group, transgendered people, infringes on the rights of another minority group, women, with serious consequences for all women. The dilemma of managing the ‘rights’ perspective is the reason why many of the participants in this study opted for transgender inclusion, even while understanding the difficul- ties this posed for their female clients. Many other partici- pants were prepared to take a stand and make the difficult decision that MTFs need to create their own safe space.
MTF inclusion in women-only spaces, whether as clients or as workers, compromises the rights of women to seek
Author's personal copy
177

178
support in a context where they are with, and receive pro- fessional help from, people with whom they have shared experiences. The inclusion of men or MTFs results in the elimination of women-only space and re-assimilation into male dominated institutions. Such mainstreaming can poten- tially remove the focus from women's issues and return to a situation described by Kaplan (1996) where women's needs in health and refuge become invisible and neglected.
As proposed by Freedman (1979) the decline of the gains achieved for women by feminism is under threat by the erasure of women-only space. Freedman argues that the building of coalitions of women's groups and continuation of separatism is crucial. In this paper I argue in support of Freedman (1979). Trans-inclusion then is one of the greatest threats faced by women.

gardenbird48 · 02/09/2020 21:06

That’s a very interesting article - I guess the threats and attempts to roll back women’s rights started a long time ago.
It occurred to me today that we are constantly being told that there is no conflict between trans rights and women’s rights.
If that was the case, it could be pointed out that therefore there can be no issue with us ensuring that women’s rights are fully enforced as written in law??

Could that flush out any acknowledgment of the conflicts? (Probably not but I can live in hope)

MichelleofzeResistance · 02/09/2020 21:20

We're constantly being told that schools are safe to re open, children don't catch it/pass it on, and driving to look at a castle is a sensible way to check eye sight.

We live in an age where it is politically normal to select a few facts, create a personally advantageous personal reality, insist repeatedly on that reality (using marketing approaches helps to try and get people to comply, including just repeating the statement over and over and over until they repeat it on automatic like a marketing slogan) and to just ignore and argue that the inconvenient facts and realities don't exist. And aren't important.

If need be, you can call those trying to get you to recognise the facts left out and the full reality, some helpfully derogative names. Or be very sad and reproachful at them for their bigotry and right wingness (none of this has to be true, the words just help to influence bystanders), and if necessary and they get really inconvenient see if you can use the legal system to shut them up.

I have no idea what you do with this. I just am surrounded by people looking in bewilderment at these politics and trying patiently to explain and reason - and just running up against a brick wall, because pretending is not only ok, it's actually in some cases getting compulsory to join in.

MichelleofzeResistance · 02/09/2020 21:26

I suppose it relies on a herd of lazy consumers who pick up emotion more than facts, are easily swayed by use of buzzwords, and don't think deeper or have the time or interest to check facts, but will emotionally invest in a point of view.

So throwing around a lot of emotive stuff, buzzwords (here's what to think), helps, and facts and figures don't need to be that accurate (or accurate at all if you're Boris and you've got a bus) because most people won't check, they'll just believe and join the emotion bandwagon.

PlanDeRaccordement · 02/09/2020 22:08

Yes well, I’ve always said that the safety argument was based in fear and not actual evidence because there is none. Nor will there be because they’re not going to let you study it, and even if they did you’d need a longitudinal study spanning twenty years at least to prove any hint of a safety problem. It was always a mistake to try and defend single sex spaces on the basis of safety. It comes across as paranoid and hysterical.
Single sex spaces should be defended on the basis of protected right to personal privacy. For religious, on the basis of religious belief such as modesty and division of space by sex as sacred to a moral life. .

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2020 08:37

Reminder: you have to be monitoring and looking for problems to record evidence of them.

If crimes by transwomen are recorded only as by women how do you collect evidence of a problem?
If women are not reporting crimes because they are too afraid to report transwomen out of fear of being labelled bigoted and perhaps losing their jobs etc as a result how do you know there is a problem?

Data available is only as good as the questions that are being asked and if the culture allows difficult questions to be asked.

Remember if you can't see sex you can't see sexism.

merrymouse · 03/09/2020 08:49

Yes well, I’ve always said that the safety argument was based in fear and not actual evidence because there is none.

I think it depends on the situation.

There is a difference between choosing to enter a public toilet (I know it’s not always a real practical choice, but it is a legal choice) and being in a space that you can’t leave like a hospital or prison.

I also think that some women have a genuine reason to fear being in a vulnerable situation in the presence of men. Whether or not this is rational in all situations doesn’t lessen the impact of their distress.

merrymouse · 03/09/2020 09:02

Data available is only as good as the questions that are being asked and if the culture allows difficult questions to be asked.

20 years ago transsexual meant Jan Morris. Now trans can include anyone who would have identified as a New Romantics in the 80s. Without objective definitions it’s difficult to understand the point of collecting data.

BatShite · 03/09/2020 17:20

Its transphobic to collect such data;. So people wail about bigotry in collecting the data, then claim the lack of data means no issues?! Fucking unbelievable.

Anyway, its nowt to do with 'trans' realy. And there is plenty of data that male people are a danger to female ones, and that mixed sex areas are not good for female people generally. Whether the male people involved like to wear feminine clothes or whatever is totally irrelevant IMO.

gardenbird48 · 03/09/2020 17:52

as someone pointed out earlier (possibly on this thread, I'm too depressed to even check), the very act of a male person entering the women's toilets counts as a self declaration of being a woman and therefore cannot be realistically challenged.

Clothes and outward appearance are totally irrelevant.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/09/2020 18:36

Its transphobic to collect such data;. So people wail about bigotry in collecting the data, then claim the lack of data means no issues?! Fucking unbelievable.

Useful tactic that, isn't it?

Escapeplanning · 03/09/2020 23:58

@MichelleofzeResistance

I suppose it relies on a herd of lazy consumers who pick up emotion more than facts, are easily swayed by use of buzzwords, and don't think deeper or have the time or interest to check facts, but will emotionally invest in a point of view.

So throwing around a lot of emotive stuff, buzzwords (here's what to think), helps, and facts and figures don't need to be that accurate (or accurate at all if you're Boris and you've got a bus) because most people won't check, they'll just believe and join the emotion bandwagon.

I was presented with a supercilious lecture from mid 20s DS last week which was a litany of buzzwords. When I told him he was telling me as a man that I as a woman should not be entitled to rely on the Equality Act 2010 he said he had no idea what that was.
CharlieParley · 04/09/2020 00:08

Yes well, I’ve always said that the safety argument was based in fear and not actual evidence because there is none.

Of course there is evidence that women are at greater risk in mixed-sex facilities. And not just anecdotally. This is the reason we have female-only provisions after all.

What happened here is based on a logical fallacy. We argue that allowing males who identify as trans access to female-only provisions increases the risk to females because males as a class pose a risk to females as a class. The Scottish Government (and trans rights campaigners) ignored the fact that our argument is based on the male sex class as a whole and instead asked if there was any specific proof that males who identify as trans pose a higher risk to females than females themselves do.

We know from an FOI that the civil servant(s) tasked with the literature review which informed the Scottish Government's report on the GRA Reform Bill only looked for evidence based on this extremely limited framing. Whether that was deliberate, done without understanding of the issues or plain lazy, we do not know. What we do know is they didn't find any actual studies showing the risk posed by males who identify as trans is equal to the risk posed by females, nor did they find any that even looked into the issue Hmm and very little on the inclusion of such males in female-only provisions - just one. And that one they misrepresented. Blatantly, as pointed out by previous posters.

This false framing isn't unique to this particular aspect of the debate. It's currently also being employed in regard to the World Rugby ruling on including males who identify as trans in female teams. Ross Tucker painstakingly explains why the framing is wrong in an excellent Twitter thread which starts

"This has been a common argument in the trans women in rugby debate. People have the idea that unless you directly study rugby AND show that TW cause injuries, it can’t be evidence based. Of course it can - there are peer reviewed studies that show two related things

He goes into detail here, but in short, to show that it is dangerous to allow males who identify as trans to play rugby against females, you do not need to provide evidence of such players already having injured female players.

You can do two other things instead:

  1. establish the biological differences between the performance of males and females

  2. establish whether (and by how much) these biological differences are changed in males who transition medically.

(As the IOC rules are based on testosterone suppression, this is what they looked at for 2.)

The evidence showed 1) a large difference in performance between males and females (strength, speed, power amongst other things) based on biological differences between the sexes and 2) testosterone suppression did not level these differences. Not even remotely.

The scientific method allows you to combine these two results to conclude that the large difference between males and females results in an unacceptable risk to females if males are allowed to play against them. And that the increased risk is not reduced in any significant way by a medical transition, ie males who identify as trans represent the same risk to females as all other male players.

The same reasoning applies to our topic:

Female-only provisions exist for the physical and psychological wellbeing of females. Because males as a class are a risk to females as a class.

In order to decide whether it puts females at risk to allow males who identify as trans access to female-only provisions, you don't need to show that males who identify as trans have already harmed women after gaining access. All you need to do is:

  1. establish the risk that males as a class pose to females as a class and

  2. establish whether and by how much that risk changes when males identify as trans.

Unlike with Rugby however, there is no clear boundary drawn to base a decision on for 2. We can go with

a) fully transitioned
b) testosterone suppression
c) social transition
d) no changes whatsoever

We have ample evidence for 1). Decades worth of empirical data as well as psychological, forensic and medical research proving this is a global truth. That's why female-only provisions exist. And why they exclude all males. No matter how vulnerable any individual male may be when they are in male-only spaces.

The risk to vulnerable males in male-only provisions is a separate matter from the issue in question and addressing the problem by abolishing female-only provisions violates the rights of females.

Thus, arguments based on the risk males who identify as trans face in male-only spaces are irrelevant to the question of whether their inclusion in female-only provisions increases the risk for the females in these spaces. Instead, those seeking trans inclusion must not only prove that identifying as trans lowers the risk a male poses to females but also that this risk is lowered to the level females pose to other females. Furthermore, in the absence of a clear cut off, of a minimum transition threshold, they must also show which level of transition lowers the risk by what degree. In the absence of any such evidence of lowered risk, inclusion must be rejected. Because our premise - that males as a class pose a risk to females as a class - has not been disproven. And neither has any evidence been provided that would exempt males who identify as trans from the risk posed by all males as a class.

Obviously, the fact that access demands are no longer limited to post-op transsexuals but now include male-presenting males who declare a female identity by their very presence in female-only provisions weakens the opposition's case further.

And that's why we are constantly told we have no evidence that males who identify as trans have harmed females in female-only provisions, just fear. To divert us and stop us from making the clear, evidence-based case that we do indeed have.

merrymouse · 04/09/2020 06:37

Obviously, the fact that access demands are no longer limited to post-op transsexuals but now include male-presenting males who declare a female identity by their very presence in female-only provisions weakens the opposition's case further.

I think this is the key issue that is never addressed when studies of trans women are mentioned.

Single sex provision requires exclusion and discrimination. (Just as laws that limit sales of alcohol require exclusion and discrimination).

If service providers allow anyone to choose provision according to their own level of comfort, the only relevant comparator is all men.

MichelleofzeResistance · 04/09/2020 16:35

Useful tactic that, isn't it?

It's exactly the same one as used by small children who haven't yet learned about fairness and standards being two way things that apply to everyone involved, who constantly changes the rules as they play a board game with you. So when YOU land on a snake you have to go down it and they're thrilled you lose, but if THEY land on a snake there's a hundred and one reasons why that means they don't have to go down and instead get another turn.

I wonder if this is why a site full of Mums is the only place with a clear eye on this: we've seen it all, we live with it, we don't take this from our pre-schoolers when they try to pull it so are not taking it from people supposed to be adults.

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