How to not alienate my 13yo?

[accessorizequeen]

I talked last night with my 13yo DS about JKR and trans issues. It came up because my Dsis is anti-JKR and has previously called me transphobic for not wanting to be called Cis. My Dsis is very dear to me and incredibly supportive, so I’ve no desire to get into arguments with her. My DS assumed wrongly that I believed TWAW. Seemed very upset and horrified that I did not, although he agreed people couldn’t change sex. He said a Transwoman became a woman when they had transitioned and I was denying this. I didn’t manage to get the importance of language over to him. I did say that a huge proportion of TW never have surgery. He shut down on me and I sense that he is upset and shocked by my stance. He has said in the past he would like to be a girl, I’ve certainly wondered if he was trans at times, and he’s certainly a feminine boy. I do not wish him to feel that I’m not supportive of him, but I am at a loss how I should continue. I sent him the link to JKR’s post and said I hoped he might read it. Help!

Is your DS ASD? Gender dysphoria is common in ASD children due to sensory issues and black/white thinking.

I think it's important that he sees both sides of the debate. Has he read JKR's piece? Engage him about what specifically he disagrees with. Discuss the science. If he's bright, you could share some of the articles you read, and remind him that, in order to debate a topic, he needs to know it inside-out and from all sides.

Ah sorry, I see that you linked to JKR. I think it's important to teach him to understand that taking a nuanced, well-informed position on something means understanding the debate from differing viewpoints (not that anyone on Twitter got the memo ).

Yes, he has ASD. Very b/w thinking, more so than my two other boys who are also ASD. I did send the article link to him, and said I was open to discussion. Didn’t have an answer to the “once they’ve transitioned, they’re a woman” approach.

He’s just joined Twitter and was looking at the I stand with JKR hashtag. He mentioned it in front of my sister and I had to quickly shut things down. My Dsis will not debate or discuss, she just thinks I’m transphobic and wrong.

It's tricky for ASD children to understand that you can have differences of opinion and still love and admire people. This is a really useful learning experience for your DS. It's clear he's trying to understand your point of view if he's researching JKR on Twitter.

Perhaps you could look at Twitter together. How do people present their arguments? Who is being calm and rational, and who is just lashing out? Whose point of view is he able to take on board more easily?

He's only 13 so I think JKR's essay, while brilliant, may not contain much resonance for him. I also think at 13 it might be a while before he will understand his own sexuality or identity. I suggest that instead of trying to win the argument you make it clear to him that you love and accept people for who they are, but you also believe in science and the reality of physical bodies. We are animals, after all. You can say that while you think people have the right to express themselves how they choose, society is organised around the fact that there are males and females and to change this to organising around how people feel inside is going to be very difficult. Explain that you don't think boys and girls should have to fit into stereotypes- maybe there are examples in your family where you can look at gender non conforming behaviour? I would try to meet him where he is - think about his hobbies and interests and see if you can make a connection there. I wouldn't ppanic or bombard him with stuff. The best you can hope for initially is to make a space in his mind for doubts and questions. I would say to be relaxed, humorous and chilled out about it all, so it doesn't feel like a huge intense thing. You're not arguing with a TRA, you're talking with your son. You don't have to explain your position in detail even, you can just show you think it's a bit silly. Humour is a great tool but obviously be cautious if your boy is likely to think it's meanness.

I did say very clearly that I support trans women, that I am coming from a position of support for women’s rights. But that I can’t ignore biology. I just know how black and white he is and how fixed he can get. I don’t want him to feel he can’t talk about his gender identity with me as it’s clearly not fixed for him. I’ve always been very supportive of him in that sense. He wears makeup and whilst his dad/my ex went off the deep end, I’ve been accepting. He doesn’t see his dad, I really don’t want to alienate him too about this. Thank you for the advice.

@Gncq he’s on Twitter, I think he will find this out for himself. That’s what worries me!

I really do think asking your son to break down what he considers the words 'man' and 'woman' to mean might be helpful. What do men 'do'? What do women 'do'? If the word 'man' doesn't just mean 'adult human male', what other things need to be taken into consideration?

Show him pictures of 17th century men like Charles I, with their longhaired wigs, heeled shoes and frilly clothing. Were these men actually women? Pictures of native American men with long hair and 80s male popstars experimenting with make-up might also help.

Does he think that women should be denied the vote because their 'lady brains' are unable to think things through logically? This was once the case.

In 19th century China little girls used to have their feet 'bound' to make them more attractive. This meant breaking the bones and folding the feet back on themselves, making it very painful for the girl to walk. If the little girl said she had a 'boy' brain, would her parents have allowed her to 'identify' out of this practice? (Spoiler: no they would not.)

I think it's probably important to be clear that no matter what, people cannot change biological sex. It's just the luck of the draw whether you're born male or female but that doesn't mean you have to behave or look any particular way. I think that's a simple concept to understand. It is pretty black and white! But it sounds like he is open with you about his thoughts and hopefully the trip through puberty will clarify things for him further. The more people look and question this ideology, the closer they will get to the truth. It's not looking or questioning that is the problem!

Most GNC kids turn out to be gay - have you spoken about that with him?

Oh, and a really useful question to ask is 'what would make that belief or theory false?' You can ask him to ask that about his own opinion or about yours. It's a great question because it forces you to consider the other side. E.g. TWAW could be false IF physical sex is more relevant than a felt sense of identity. Okay, so when might sex be more relevant - what kind of situations? Healthcare, sports? So then it destabilises the original opinion because we can easily establish that in some situations it is false. You can do this with your own opinions and see if they are destabilised or strengthened. It's a really useful exercise and can be fun!

Yeah best not to bombard a 13 with too much information.

It's better to show consistency over a longer period and drop information here and there without referring to trans at all - when opportunities arise remind him that you love him as he is, that boys and girls or men and women can wear what they like, be interested in any kind of hobby, that stereotypes and roles are silly and outdated, point out good role models - like Prince and David Bowie in music were flamboyant but definitely men (assuming he likes music).

Cultivate an interest in science, especially biology. If there's a topical science article about women's or men's bodies, explain the differences. Even in archaeology you can tell the difference between male and female skeletons - you can point that out next time you're in a museum together or something. Talk about biology in other animals - male and female is an evolutionary mechanism and humans are no exception.

Also teach your son about the importance of critical thinking and skills to determine how ideology and beliefs can be used to control people. Use religion and political ideology as a good teaching aide. Like discuss certain cults vs normal faith groups that do not control their followers. How can you tell the difference?

You don't need to venture into debates about trans stuff at all. It's about identifying patterns and signs about 'healthy' ideas and beliefs, and 'unhealthy' ones.
It's about giving your son the skills to help him navigate the world as he grows up. It takes months and years. You're not trying to 'win' arguments and debates with him. Get him to understand that people disagree about all sorts of things all the time, but can still come to mutual respect and understanding by listening to other perspectives.

Discuss court cases like the Christian bakery that refused to write a message about supporting gay marriage, and won. The importance of free speech, freedom to disagree, freedom to not be compelled etc. It will require you to also be informed and learn about these nuanced issues as well.

Who knows, in a few years as he gets older, he might come to realise the arguments supporting trans ideology are fairly illogical and rubbish anyway.

I asked him if he believed people could change sex and he said no. But clearly he thinks it’s being unkind to then say trans women aren’t women. Socially and culturally, yes. Biologically no. He is bisexual, he currently thinks. He’s always been a boy who is quite fluid in terms of gender. And I’ve been accepting and supportive and always will be.

I will not be so confrontational. Clearly that’s been a problem. The aim should be to get my kids to question ideology, well question lots of things. I will try harder to take that approach as I have two 11yo twins as well. Thank you.

I've spoken to my 13 year old a lot about freedom of speech, the right to hold unpopular opinion, the legal limits of free speech, cancel culture etc. This groundwork make it easier for us to have tricky conversations.
I think you're going to have some difficult conversations ahead, but that's part and parcel of parenting teens anyway.
The way I have approached it is talking about why people might want to change sex/gender (she's very clear on the distinction between sex and gender) - personally I think consenting, properly informed adults should be allowed to do this and we have fair laws in this country to protect transgender people from discrimination. I don't think children can properly consent to drugs and surgery though, but I don't think the services we currently have to help dysphoric kids is particularly good.
We also talk about how whilst there are 2 sexes, there's a huge variation within that at how people look and feel about themselves. We are all unique.
We've talked about things like sports, single sex facilities, school, etc and why trans people might want to use certain ones/etc and whether that is fair to others.
I've encouraged her to read up around the topic (with certain precautions as I don't want her to be scared, she is still very young and it's very easy on the internet to see things you can't unsee) and have pointed out that there are different reasons and motivations for the way people behave. Trans is a very encompassing umbrella term.
I'm cautiously optimistic that she is making balanced, carefully thought through opinions. Her peers are pretty relentlessly 'allies' of any given cause, so she is mindful of not wanting to upset or offend anyone.

I think there is a real difference in saying to a TW's face "you are not a woman," and discussing the topic in general terms. Discussing childhood obesity is not the same as going up to an overweight child and calling them names. I think the main lesson to teach at the start of the argument is this false equivalence around kindness. It will help his BS meter going forward.

Also, not asking questions you might not like the answer to. Going back to the overweight child analogy, if they were putting people on the spot "I'm so skinny and tiny, aren't I really thin?" they can't always hide from honest answers.

Being kind is often avoiding uncomfortable truths, but if you push people to say comfortable lies, you might hear something you don't like. Whose fault is that? Should we always lie?

There's lots of approaches to get young people thinking more critically. Since he's concerned about being kind, you could also approach it from an empathy perspective, e.g. Why do you think some women might not like biologically male people calling themselves women? Maybe you can relate it to his autism. Do you think you would feel upset if someone who wasn't autistic said they identified as autistic? What about if they were given extra resources to support them and actually autistic kids lost out? To be honest, though, it sounds like your son is doing okay with it all, but your sister could use some help thinking it all through!

What about the 'fairness' angle? eg. Is it fair that trans women who are stronger, faster etc can compete against women?

I know many people with asd are very b/w about rules and what is fair.

My teenage daughter has some very woke opinions.
She is also very passionate on BLM at the moment and came to me shocked by the idea of Transracialism.
I asked her to explain to me how is it any different at all from a Transwoman claiming to be an actual woman. I said how would you feel about a white person saying they were black claiming awards, opportunities etc that were set up for POC.
I’ve showed her photos of trans women competing in women’s sports and the Karen White travesty.
She’s explained she doesn’t think they can change sex and thinks maybe sports and refuges should be for same sex, so I had to explain she was a ‘Terf’ in TA eyes, and that some women like JKR had been threatened with rape and violence just for saying things like that.
I’ll be honest and say I am quite happy to clearly state my opinions about trans ideology and call someone an Authoritarian if they try and shout me down. Children and family included.

I think 'fair' is a good concept to apply. Never been fans of unconditional kindness here. It works fine with animals, but people can take advantage!

There are some interesting quizzes on here, including one that looks at how authoritarian your attitudes are. I think it would be really interesting to let your kids have a play around with some of these to get a sense of where their attitudes fall on a political and moral spectrum. (Maybe do them yourself first to check there's nothing inappropriate for your kids - they are aimed at adults and some of the terms might need more explanation.) There were some surprising answers for me - I discovered that my anti-authoritarianism is off the scale, but also that I'm more conservative in some areas than I would have said, and also a lot happier than I thought! They are great prompts for discussion and conversation and might yield some surprising answers. www.yourmorals.org/explore.php

The one called 'Political and Social Attitudes' is the most comprehensive and personally useful one I've tried.

Some good advice here thank you. I just discovered that 2 years after his ASD diagnosis and after following some autism tweeters and having a 'lovely gentle' TW colleague where his female colleagues have not objected to sharing toilets my early 20s son has now decided TWAW and I'm a Terf. He had formerly grasped some of women's concerns.

We've started the discussion and I've asked him to give me the same courtesy of respecting people's preferred pronouns and how they wish to be addressed and never to call me 'cis' , he argued how could we distinguish between Trans and not and I replied by using 'trans' I wish I'd pointed out that if we need to distinguish TWANW

Today is going to be a much longer trans discussion (I had more concerns about his twitter usage I needed to address so started with the easier discussion). He's older I think I am going to go down the male patterns of offending (and make him aware how much sexual violence there is against women) and take him through some of the TW sex offenders stats as he thinks Karen White was an anomaly. I'm planning to start the discussion by asking him to explain to me how TWAW. My ASD son feels younger than his age, is that normal? With a late diagnosis and my concerns overs the 'trans' pushing at the NAS we haven't had access to any material to help grasp what his diagnosis means for him. He's high functioning.

I've spoken to my 13 year old a lot about freedom of speech, the right to hold unpopular opinion, the legal limits of free speech, cancel culture etc. This groundwork make it easier for us to have tricky conversations

Beamur

I think this is absolutely critical. Unfortunately, I think children and teenagers are not being taught Enlightenment values like freedom of speech and critical thinking. Instead, they are being indoctrinated to believe that there are a rigid set of views which are mandatory and that dissent or even questioning the assertions made by active lobbyists is heresy. These are not secular beliefs, they are religious beliefs and they are being promoted with a kind of fanatical purity which should alarm all of us.

queenofknives
You are right about the authoritarian tendencies of the Robespierre faction. It is quite incredible to behold. It would be laughable that the dictionary definition of woman is deemed in anyway controversial. But there is nothing remotely funny about those enforcing the compelled speech of the Newspeak dictionary.