Ed Davey wants to listen and rebuild the Lib Dems: let's talk to him

[Shedbuilder]

Just heard that Ed Davey has won the ballot to lead the Lib Dems. His opponent was Layla Moran, the pansexual who sees souls (and also a rather troubled soul herself, judging from things she revealed in a fairly recent interview). So some sanity prevails.

Davey has declared his desire the rebuild the LDs by listening to what ordinary people have to say, so let's tell him. We want an end to all TWAW nonsense and he can rebuild his party and get a pretty instant following if he just stands against the TRAs and supports women's rights. I'm one of thousands, possibly millions, of women who used to be Labour and am now politically homeless. If the LDs were to come out as a party that supported women and girls and not a tool of the MRAs he can have my vote.

Is there a single article/ link I can include in my email to him that demonstrates the plight of the left-centre woman in search of a party she can sign up to? Would Suzanne Moore's Spectator article be any good? Surely Suzanne Moore writing in the Spectator with hundreds of former Labour women applauding should make the point that everything's up for grabs to the party who cares to side with women?

@Kit19

the couple of bad incidents thing does my head in

we changed our law around gun ownership because of Dunblane we didnt go "ooooh well most people who own guns dont shoot up schools so it would be wrong to base policy on that #notallgunowners"

Ian Huntley led to the requirements around CRB now DBS checks - we didnt go "oh well most adults who work with children dont murder them so we dont need to improve safeguarding"

and yet when a TW attacks a woman its immediately "hey #notallTW it woul be wrong to base policy on that"

it fucks me off so much that women being harmed is seen as just one of those things we have to put up with in society

Yes, because the emphasis has shifted from the safeguarding rules and protocols and how that framework is best improved, what we can do to ensure protection, to the alleged people who might be affected by it.

Karen White sexually assaults women in prison

The logical way to progress is to look at the rules, to see how they need to be changed.

Instead, we are being encouraged to look at the people involved, to see how they can be understood/changed.

Not sure I'm making a clear point here, thinking it through ... shift in emphasis from regulations/rules/law to people/emotion/character.

When he says 'listen' to concerns of ordinary people, he means listen, then ignore and talk over to preach at what we should all believe.

I'm so done with it. He was given time to listen and chose not to.

He has to lead the way, not expect women or anyone else to do all the running around on this. He's been told what concerns are many times over. If he has to go and seek an audience for a second time I don't know what the fuck he was doing the first time and why he's credible in any way.

Remember Davey has been the acting leader for some time. He did fuck all to further the debate on this during this time nor address how the liberal democrats have forgotten what liberal democracy actually is.

I read all their policies on their website and their twitter account and interactions

Kokeshi's observation about the LibDems drifting further out and a couple of others' comments about respectively Farage and fringe nutters, reminded me of a couple of things. Recently Ed Davey wrote a pompous letter to the Chief Constable of Kent about Nigel Farage: 'I write out of concern that one of your local residents may have broken quarantine rules regarding international travel and is putting lives at risk...' after Farage had been to the USA and tweeted a photo of him having a pint when the pubs opened. www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nigel-farage-kent-police-a4488976.html Fair enough, he may be rightly concerned, except that in Davey's own constituency there was at least one BLM street demonstration of hundreds of people during quarantine. I didn't hear of any letters to constables about that. And echoing the perception of moving out from the centre, the BLM flag was hoisted over the Lib Dem controlled Guildhall in his constituency, Kingston - and ditto the rainbow flag which was reported as being for the first time.

This comes in the wake of recent successes around here for the LibDems in both the last local elections in Kingston where they annihilated the ruling Conservatives and in taking back MPs' seats - including Davey's in 2017 also from a Conservative, after only two years - and Richmond from Goldsmith. Lib Dems riding high here. And as for mention of nutters, Spiked isn't holding back, with an article brutally headed 'Layla Moran's Maddest Moments'. I'm sure those have been covered on Mumsnet before now.

@endofthelinefinally

Female privilege???

I was referring to a certain prominent lib dem 🤔

Oh. I see. I was baffled for a minute.

Just had a socially distanced coffee with a mate and showed them the Ed Davey/ Ian Dale interview in which Ed Davey says he's listened to GC women and doesn't agree with them. My friend wondered whether ED would also say 'I've listened to the opinions of black people but I don't agree and I'm basing my views on what my advisor Rachel Dolezal tells me.'

@Newuser123123

I read all their policies on their website and their twitter account and interactions

On right. I know they support Brexit and support points based immigration (is that the UKIP bit?), but I am not sure where the wanting women to stay at home but comes from. I am genuinely interested, as though I struggle with Brexit stuff (although think their reasoning is sound), I haven't got the impression of them otherwise being like UKIP or of them wanting women to stay at home or of them being nut jobs.

Their only MEP was a ukip defector.
I found the focus on family and subsidising houses so young families can live on one wage suggestive that women shouldn't work.

Also their policies were such a hodge podge, any member can suggest them and it shows.
The nationalism gave me a bit of a racist vibe.
I looked carefully as I was hoping to join, but not for me I'm afraid.

Liberal Party formed in 1850's and governed, when led by Gladstone by the 1950's it had 6 seats, so not far to go there Ed.

Can you imagine Gladstone, Lloyd George, Ed Davey

He will always be tarnished by being part of the coalition government. Even with his achievements on renewable energy.

Dear Ed Davey

If TWAW

Please define exactly WHAT IS A MAN ?

What makes a person a man and thus eligible to apply to Eton or Brooks's or Boodle's or the Garrick ?

A person cannot be a man and a woman at the same time
so
WHAT IS A MAN ?

@Newuser123123

Their only MEP was a ukip defector. I found the focus on family and subsidising houses so young families can live on one wage suggestive that women shouldn't work.

Also their policies were such a hodge podge, any member can suggest them and it shows.
The nationalism gave me a bit of a racist vibe.
I looked carefully as I was hoping to join, but not for me I'm afraid.

Fair enough. But nut jobs?

I would like to know more about the defection because the fact that person moved from a right wing(but essentially single issue) party to a centrist party in respect of which Brexit is just one facet is interesting.
I think the focus on family is good and I don’t jump straight to women stay at home, rather making it possible for someone to stay at home and look after their own children and/or generally making it easier for families not to have both parents work full time. I too share disquiet on the immigraton/Brexit front, but I suspect that this is because of my social conditioning and active dislike of UKIP’s attitude. This area is a work in progress for me.

I just worry that you classifying a clearly centrist party as”nut jobs” seeks to put them in the same bracket as UKIP or the Brexit party and I cannot see any evidence of that.

I know I sound abut like an SDP advocate. I am not. I have no allegiance, but I worry that green shoots of centrism in a post-Brexit world need to be nurtured and shaped, not condemned.

Their policies just seemed so random - one was to remove all two-tier local government, then the next was to get kids to do a daily mile. Lots of police housing and military spending also made me nervous.

However, this is just my opinion, I could be wrong and you are perfectly entitled to ignore me. I also think the greens are loonies and the tories are basically evil and millions vote for them. If you join up/ find out more about the SDP let me know, as I said, I was interested in joining but got a bad vibe from their policies.

The party has moved to one which champions individualism rather than talking about society as a whole. So its all about the rights of the individual to do what they want rather than thinking about safeguarding. Thats a move from liberal democracy into libertarianism. UKIP was much more of a libertarian party from the get go in terms of hating red tape and restrictions placed on individuals. So the jump between the two isnt as wild as you think - i know a few who have gone that way.

The main problem with the LDs is how they are structured and how small its leadership is in reality. The LDs operate off the back of fag packets in someones shed or office. They have no budget and next to no paid staff. Anything that gives you ideas to the contrary is pure PR (general election campaign buses only show for photocalls where its required). The party is desperate for funds because it doesn't get many big business donations nor is it funded via trade unions. Its a legacy of our crap finding of elections which makes us vulnerable to the demands of single big donors and oligarchs.

This also means the party is more dominated by volunteers - particularly at local level. This is why the party works well at local level - but i think we will see going forward theres a couple of issues with this. There is an older membership who have been more sane who will be replaced by fanatics and a lot of its motivation is driven by middle class self interest rather than a thought about how to move society forward as a whole. Much of local support comes from the NIMBY effect which is unsustainable. Especially as inequality grows and / or Johnson takes a sledgehammer to planning law (thus crippling local power in this area)

The effect of the party being so reliant on volunteers at its highest levels is why it has such a problem with sexism in the party. Women who have children are effectively squeezed out. Its much more difficult for them to attend conference where policy decisions are made in the first place and its much more difficult for them to take up high level influencial roles in the party. Then theyve been forcably ejected in some appalling cases and told they are not welcome due to this transwomen brainwashing. Its also why so many trans activists have become prominent in the party as they dont face the same discriminatory barriers nor barriers resulting from child-bearing. Good old fashioned sexism is that deeply ingrained in the structure of the party. Its telling how much theyve pushed forward women into MP positions - its to deflect against their internal problem of a lack of representation and proper participation of women particularly in certain age groups. Women in certain age groups have done better in both Labour and the Conservatives because they are better supported in a paid HR structure and because of the ways the parties operate and their belief system. The Lib Dem structure for HR and complaints system is a fucking farce.

It has a massive problem with bullying its still not facing up to. I have a message in my twitter inbox from a senior LD acknowledging and admitting the party has a problem with bullying but basically they are too scared to do anything about it. Their public tweets massively reflect their public lack of spine. That was the real nail in the coffin for me in terms of giving the party any credibility. Its about the self interest of senior members in terms of their career rather than doung whats right for the party and the country.

If you cant see the bullying, harassment and flat out sexist homophobic bullshit that parts of the party have been actively promoting for the last 3 or 4 years and youve jumped on that bangwagon joyfully to help win you the leadership, you sure as hell arent going to have 'uncomfortable conversations' about difficult subjects. You are part of the fucking problem.

I dont have much hope for the party because of the pincer move thats about to happen and it doesn't realise. Johnson's planning reform will shatter the grassroots movement in ways they dont see coming. And the culture war which the party actively have pushed in terms of identity politics will further squeeze them out. They destroyed their own identity in becoming so militant and authoritarian about stopping Brexit. Their strength was in moderate debate and taking a middle ground but theyve actively shunned that themselves on two fronts - forgetting that liberal democracy rests on the entire 'on the balance of evidence and in the spirit of compromise' argument in favour of emotive black and white issues where if you are 'wrong' you are shunned and/or ejected.

Until the Liberal Democrats decide to remember what liberal democracy is rather than this libertarian tripe crossed with identity politics its a spent political force which will struggle to get 5% of the vote. Its years from addressing its own inner demons. It cant move forward until it gets its own house in order.

Chickens have roosted.

Excellent analysis thank you

A really good read Red

Excellent post RTB

Thanks, RTB. At the hustings for the 2015 general election I was hugely impressed by the LD candidate, an older man who knocked the spots off all the other candidates and was clearly respected by them all.

When Labour were defeated nationally and locally I wasn't surprised and was so unhappy with Corbyn/ Momentum that I went along to a couple of LD events to find out what they were about. They were the older type of liberals and the talk reminded me of Labour Party I used to know. There were also a couple of young beardy blokes who were both full-on TWAW. It was around the time the the LGB & T Lib Dem Twitter was in full TRA flow and and I explained to the older guy that I couldn't join the party if it was considered okay for these young bloods to be telling me, a lesbian, that I should accept men in women's and lesbian circles. He emailed me to say he and his wife and most of those who'd been in the party for years were as horrified as I was by this and like me, his wife was contemplating leaving the party because of it.

I noticed in the 2019 election material that photos of the local LD supporters show a younger, more blue-haired bunch and the candidate for that election was a gay man who told me to fuck off when I asked him to define 'woman'.

I just live in hope that out of this absolute shitshow something better can rise. Surely even a makeshift Women's Rights party would be able to get more than 5% of the vote from all the disgruntled women who've been rejected by Labour?

I listened to quite a few of the LD hustings in this leadership competition (I posted about them elsewhere) and I found myself just hopelessly cynical of all their policies and I can’t work out whether my politics have actually changed (I think I fall somewhere between social democracy and liberal democracy) whether theirs have or whether I am just so cross with them over their support of trans ideology that I can no longer see the wood for the trees. Your post was helpful Red, thank you. One of the most annoying things in the diversity and young liberals hustings was that they kept going on about how young their campaign team were and how great that was. Obviously it is wonderful to be brining on a new generation of political campaigners, but it seems that they are only thinking about that. I don’t know, perhaps that is unfair. I am just so cross with them for so many things.

I spoke to the LD canvasser outside the polling booth last year and told him I couldn’t vote for them due to their leader not knowing what a woman is. He completely understood - he was of the older Liberal variery. A normal, ordinary politically engaged man of a certain age who got it. There must be thousands of them and yet they are all silent.

@Newuser123123

Their policies just seemed so random - one was to remove all two-tier local government, then the next was to get kids to do a daily mile. Lots of police housing and military spending also made me nervous.

However, this is just my opinion, I could be wrong and you are perfectly entitled to ignore me. I also think the greens are loonies and the tories are basically evil and millions vote for them. If you join up/ find out more about the SDP let me know, as I said, I was interested in joining but got a bad vibe from their policies.

I think their main problem is that they are trying to make it OK to be patriotic and want people to feel good about being British, and don’t want to apologise or downplay that. They also truly believe in government being close to the people for the sake of accountability and effectiveness which is one of the reasons (I think entirely valid) for them being a Brexit Party, together with the fact that they feel that they cannot create an effective social democracy within EU strictures of the EU and without being able to control borders (as almost no-one wants open borders, it is just a question of where you put them - at the Edge of the EU or the edge of the U.K. - and what criteria you have to allow people to cross them). The effect though makes them at first glance seem close minded, old fashioned and inward looking, and because we live in an age which encourages to feel shame about being British and which is incredibly global it turns people off. As I say, it turns me off, but I am questioning why. I think they need to keep it, but also speak more about internationalism and how their political philosophy could be a force for good there. I accept though, that I also might be wrong! It is worth noting that they have had defectors from labour as well as the one from UKIP.

My biggest thing with then though is that they need more (feminist) women. Their trans/sex policy is OK (certainly better than all the other mainstream parties) and they clearly have enlightenment values, but I suspect that they they are entirely cynical about feminism and dismissive of any analysis that looks at patriarchal structures. They seem to be quite massively male dominated and I know that they quite deliberately left out everyday needs of women to single sex spaces (toilets etc), I think for political reasons,but I think there is space (because it is a tiny party and because it creates policy on the hoof) to really get better and more rigorous thinking on feminist and women’s rights issues (and indeed on the issues of nation mentioned above). I am contemplating writing to William Clouston.

Identity politics was invented by the right to make the left eat itself
but the Libdems have self destructed far more quickly and thoroughly

its so sad as those of us who want to be in the middle ground are as lost as the moderates across the pond

I spoke to the LD canvasser outside the polling booth last year and told him I couldn’t vote for them due to their leader not knowing what a woman is
Ask them to define what a man is ......
on the basis that TWAW
then what is a man?
(I suggest buying popcorn in advance)

the TWAW argument will only be won by parking our tanks on their lawn
What is a man ?
has to be the opening question in all Trans debates