"Surrogate lost" - did she die?

[OhHolyJesus]

I struggle to post about Lance Bass due to the overt misogyny causing me nausea but here it is .

He and his husband 'lost' a surrogate and now he's sad as finding one during times of a global pandemic are really hard. I don't think she died, but 'lost'? She wasn't yours to lose.

I think the poor woman was likely quite broken wants to now run far and fast away from these awful people. I hope she has a good therapist.

toofab.com/2020/08/21/lance-bass-gives-update-on-surrogacy/

For anyone who would like to explore how surrogacy affects the rights of women and children in more detail, here is Lauren Hamstead' s prize-winning essay from the Object! Essay Competition 2020

objectnow.org/how-do-altruistic-and-commercial-surrogacy-affect-the-rights-of-women-and-children/

I highly recommend it, especially because she also explores how damaging even the concept of "altruistic" surrogacy is to these human rights.

It's an absolute disgrace, and a sign of how deep we still are in patriarchal systems, that a man like lance is allowed to have any part, let alone influence, in the surrogacy conversation. What an absolutely revolting person.

The author's conclusion is quoted here in full:

Surrogacy is incompatible with the full realisation of the rights of women and children. As I have shown, as a practice it raises a number of concerns related to medical ethics, exploitation and commodification. Its fundamental root lies in the patriarchal relationship between men and women. Whilst slavery, exploitative labour and the sale of human organs are almost universally condemned, the exploitation and sale of female bodies is accepted to a much greater degree. There is no part of female anatomy that cannot be profited from. Given the growth and increasing acceptance of the surrogacy industry it is a key contemporary issue for feminists.

The general direction of reform globally has been towards prohibition in recent years. There have, however, been notable exceptions. New York state recently legalised commercial surrogacy as its governor included legislation within the coronavirus pandemic budget. In the UK pro-surrogacy groups have lobbied for a change in the law and steered a government consultation such that the rights of women and children were far from fully considered.

Law and policy is developing and changing across the world and it is vital that the rights of women and children are always the foremost consideration. I have argued for an abolitionist approach because a regulatory harm reduction approach does not advance the aim of feminism. Industrialising patriarchal norms is not compatible with a political movement that demands the emancipation of all women. Feminism cannot succeed by sacrificing the most disenfranchised women to patriarchy, restricting its interest to making improvements to the conditions of their abuse. Surrogacy must be prohibited.

@FannyCann

Their IVF struggle....they haven't been pregnant since last year...

On another thread we have a woman claiming facilitating this is the "ultimate act of feminism"

It was just a meaningless platitude wasn't it? Along with the guff about "it taking a village to raise a child"

I can't post on the actual thread as I'd just get deleted.

The expression "sun roof" was used. That's a new one on me.

Try the surrogacy board Dido it's been moved about a fair bit but I can still see it.

*Here's another one just for youKingFredsTache!

www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2018/06/her-name-is-monroe-christine

Imagine growing up and finding your fathers joked about your mother while she was giving birth live on TV.*

That article was so disgusting that I almost forgot to be outraged that Lance is trying to order male twin taurus babies. How is this ok?!

How can people value women so little? One could suggest that if you only want babies of a certain gender, star sign and twins, maybe you aren't really ready to be a parent. There's a lot that doesn't go your way once kids are there!

Imagine that poor baby girl growing up with those men and knowing how they treated the woman who gave birth to her.

OhHolyJesus, I saw the thread, thanks. It uses "sun roof". I didn't get what was meant until the explanation on here.

I can't possibly post on the thread what I really want to say.

I'm not sure why any woman would want to be a surrogate for them.

But then I never understood why anyone would for EJ & DF.

@KingFredsTache

10 egg donors 3 birth mothers

Wow! Do they actually have a child yet?

I watched that film 'Eggsploitation' on YouTube - I had no idea egg donation was so risky. Let's just say its a world away from wanking into a cup.

No child yet. The tenth egg donor has enabled them to create new embryos waiting for the third birth mother to be found.

Also, yes, that documentary is harrowing. What I found most shocking in all of this:

Egg donation is a widespread practice all over the world. But because the original procedure had been conceived of as the retrieval of eggs from the ovaries of women suffering infertility themselves, there has never been a single study done anywhere in the world that looked into the longterm outcomes for egg donors.

In 30 years no one has ever done an actual medical study into what happens to these young, healthy women donating their eggs so other women can carry a child.

Even though egg donors have died as a direct consequence of the procedure.

About 1600 women register in the UK every year to donate their eggs and in the US, they don't even count the women - just the number of "donor cycles" (18.306 in 2010). And many many more thousands of women have donated their eggs in other countries.

Not one study.

Thanks for posting that essay CharlieParley , I will have a good read later. I love her conclusion, the final sentence is one I need to write down and quote regularly!

It's not clear to me why they have gone through ten egg donors - I thought the whole point was lots of eggs are retrieved so available for use another time.

I do wish we could come up with a better word for egg donors - in the USA it is big business and they are definitely selling albeit without the benefit of fully informed consent. In the UK the price is capped at £750 which doesn't seem a lot for the pain and inconvenience so I guess most women are doing it from a more altruistic intention?

I would like to know how many of those donated eggs (especially in the US) were donated under the "you can have free IVF if you pass on the spare eggs" system.

In other words, they weren't freely donated. Having gone through a number of (failed) IVF cycles myself, I know that egg donation isn't simple, it isn't painless - it's fucking awful. And having had my cycles fail, I can't imagine the grief of wondering for the rest of my life whether any of my donated eggs succeeded - wondering whether I had biological children wandering around in the world while not having a child myself.

I suspect there is no research into this aspect either

Sorry, off topic for this thread, but the whole "egg donation" topic really upsets me. I don't believe most donors actually have a clue what they are getting into.

@CharlieParley thanks for that article absolutely excellent.

The more I read about surrogacy, the more convinced I am that it should be banned. Both commercial and altruistic but I'm not sure how you would go about banning altruistic surrogacy, because that's harder to regulate. I've come to the conclusion though that surrogacy in all forms is exploitative. People talk about choice but are decisions made out of necessity really choices? And even with altruistic surrogacy, there are drawbacks. It can also be exploitative.

I don’t really have a lot to add here, only my thoughts.

I read this on the DM this morning and was shocked at the wording used. If we don’t mention women, then maybe everyone will forget about the sacrifices they have to make!

because the original procedure had been conceived of as the retrieval of eggs from the ovaries of women suffering infertility themselves

Infertile women are the Trojan horses, that is why we now have a class of men talking about their IVF and their pregnancy without even mentioning the women concerned, whilst demanding fertility equality.

The head of the Law Commissioners alluded to similar views in a recent response to a letter.

Regarding the increased risks of donor oocyte pregnancies for surrogate mothers he pointed out that the numbers of surrogate DO pregnancies was small compared to the number of IVF (non surrogate) DO pregnancies.

It is hard to get across the point that it is one thing for a woman to choose to go through all this in pursuit of her own pregnancy and another thing for women to be hired to produce a baby and be exposed to these risks along the way.

Also, re: egg donation, a woman having IVF doesn't need a huge number of eggs. I sometimes lurk on the infertility board to learn more, a few woman have mentioned that their consultant reassuringly told them "all they need is one good egg" (and for some that was indeed enough). Whereas if a woman is being paid $10,000 for her eggs there is an imperative to maximise the harvest.

NICE guidelines are that the doses of hormones be kept to the minimum to reduce the risk of OHSS but I don't think that can be compatible with maximising the number of eggs.

I have corresponded with the HFEA about this. They supplied these figures, (averages) which suggest egg donors are producing more eggs than IVF patients but posited age might be the reason (they do not monitor drug regimes so aren't able to comment regarding whether this could be the reason).

What a despicable article. He sounds deeply arrogant and unpleasant.

”And so now -- now begins the process of finding a replacement incubator which is hard during Covid because a lot of incubators really don't want to get pregnant during a time like this."

There, this is basically how they feel about the WOMAN, ADULT HUMAN FEMALE, that they want to use like a piece of equipment. Not once, have they referred to the woman as if she was a human being. Absolutely disgusting misogyny. I hope any woman that feels that they want to be a ‘surrogate’ for these selfish individuals, read how he describes the women whose wombs he wants to rent, changes their minds when they read his thoughts on them.

A lot of this is horrible but AIBU to think ‘sunroof’ is okay? It’s just a joke! I had to have sections with both my babies and my sister (who’s had two natural births) refers to mine as having come out the sunroof. It honestly would never have occurred to me to take that offensively!

Here are just a couple of links about "voluntary donation" of eggs in the UK - there are hundreds of fertility clinics who do this.

www.bournhall.co.uk/fertilityblog/free-ivf-treatment-for-egg-sharing-or-sperm-donation/

www.completefertility.co.uk/blog-resources/blog-news/why-are-we-offering-free-ivf-for-our-egg-sharers

Is this really voluntary or are they taking advantage of desperate infertile women? Say a cycle of IVF costs £3,000 privately,but is free if you donate half your eggs, aren't you actually being paid £3,000 for egg donation - way above the allowed £750.

And FannyCann - your point is very relevant to this - I bet there is pressure to use higher doses of medication to increase the number of eggs in order to provide eggs for sharing. I can't find any research in this area.

@Phrowzunn

A lot of this is horrible but AIBU to think ‘sunroof’ is okay? It’s just a joke! I had to have sections with both my babies and my sister (who’s had two natural births) refers to mine as having come out the sunroof. It honestly would never have occurred to me to take that offensively!

It's not ok in the context of women being treated like baby-making machines. What may be an inoffensive joke between sisters or friends is a different matter when it's part of a dehumanising, emotionally void repertoire of language.

Oh that's hideous.

Also the only time "we're pregnant" is OK is when a lesbian couple are simultaneously pregnant.

Personally don't find the sunroof comment that offensive. I've seen it used before (sunroof vs. car door) in other contexts like discussing the pelvic floor.

@Phrowzunn As with so many jokes it depends on the context. I don't think you are being unreasonable, I have heard it jokingly used in the way your sister uses it. I might even have heard medical professionals make the joke.

But I do mind deeply at the general drift to using dehumanising language to erase women and the experience of pregnancy and birth that they go through from the conversations about surrogacy. So in that context it ceases to be a joke.

Don't feel bad for your family chatter but maybe, as they grow older and gain understanding, make sure your children don't really think it's all as simple as opening a sunroof!

Those articles are so depressing. I mean wealthy men living in a bubble and not giving AF about the welfare of others is nothing new but I found the article about Fertility Equality particularly offensive.

How dare they compare being in a same sex relationship with the pain of knowing you're physically incapable of having children of your own? and they're so far up their own backsides they don't even see the problem. It's so disgusting. The entitlement of it all just makes me sick.

AlbusSirius. So sorry for your difficult experience with IVF.
Thanks for posting the link. I've looked into this a bit too as the local IVF clinic, which treats women referred there from my hospital and funded by the NHS, was offering egg sharing as an option. Their website stated it would cost £1000 instead of the full price if £3500+

I commented on this to the HFEA, that it wasn't in the spirit of a cap on payment of £750.

I'm sure it can't be due to me sniffing around and corresponding with the HFEA but they appear to have removed that page from their website interestingly.

I think egg sharing is very problematical, I can't imagine going through failed IVF and finding out someone else has had a baby using one's own "spare" eggs. The website does say there is a right to find out if the donated eggs have produced a child and goes into other related legal issues. I think the child would have a right to make contact after age 18 for instance. I'm on my phone and can't check just now.

I have been looking into it due to women who have had OHSS coming through my department at work (for unrelated reasons). One told me she had ended up in ICU.
There were 24 admissions to my hospital for OHSS last year I have discovered. I don't think any of them was related to egg donation. One of the women who came through my department has significant on going health problems as a result.

The entitlement of it all just makes me sick.

Sorry - now you have to share in my nausea 🙄

That's really interesting they took that webpage down Fanny, it must be a coincidence but it's a good point about the egg sharing and the maximum cap for payment being blown by a huge discount. Very concerning.