WAP song with Cardi B (slow hand clap for lib feminism)

[Iggypoppie]

The new release by Cardi B is just a male wet dream / porn addled spectacle that we've all to believe is empowering. It actually made me feel sick. Lyrics are basically along the theme of whores, wetness, having sex for money/cars, violent sex and god knows what else. So inspiring for young women... not.

Another thread about this, also links to the recent AIBU thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3996627-Can-someone-help-me-understand-how-these-lyrics-are-being-seen-as-female-empowerment

I think that the issue is that there is discussion about some people saying this is an 'empowering' female song.

It is fine to disagree with whether it is your preference but if it is being heralded as 'female empowerment', therein lies the issue for me.

x post Ereshkigalangcleg

@Winesalot

I think that the issue is that there is discussion about some people saying this is an 'empowering' female song.

It is fine to disagree with whether it is your preference but if it is being heralded as 'female empowerment', therein lies the issue for me.

Actually, therein lies the lie, is probably more like it.

It’s almost a form of gaslighting. Keep telling girls and women that it’s ‘empowering’ to have sex for money, anal sex, rough sex, etc. It’s all empowering and you’re a prude if you don’t agree, or you can just ‘stop watching/listening’. In other words, look away and pretend that young girls/women are not being encouraged to participate in their own abuse.

@LillianBland gaslighting? What are you on about? Nobody is saying that it is 'empowering' for women to have sex for money. What is empowering is the fact that the song is done by women who are openly talking about sex and not being degraded by some male rapper or singer in a different scenario. Sure, it doesn't set a good example for children, but who said it was meant to? I'm sure it wasn't their intention either. Some people like the song for its lyrics and beat, others don't.

My interpretation of the reference to the 'ring' was payment for sexual services.

'He got some money, then that's where I'm headed
Pussy A1 just like his credit'

Or is it merely targeting a man because they pay for things. Either way, how is this empowering?

@Winesalot

I think that the issue is that there is discussion about some people saying this is an 'empowering' female song.

It is fine to disagree with whether it is your preference but if it is being heralded as 'female empowerment', therein lies the issue for me.

Yes, that's the discussion.

There are all kinds of sogs, some of them great ones, that tap into some sort of idea that is questionable or even destructive.

Think about Hey Joe, a really great song. No one thinks that is empowering for anyone. It doesn't offer any real commentary on the story, it expects people to come to their own conclusions, which these days some people object to and I would argue against that pretty strenuously.

If someone said, wow, this song shows why women shouldn't cheat on their men, that I would argue with.

WAP isn't a great song on it's own terms, but not necessarily because it suggests a mercenary and commodified vision of female sexuality. But saying it's empowering is something that can be questioned and discussed.

It depends whether you think feminism is women doing whatever they like, regardless of the impact on other women as girls,

Or

Making the world a better place for women and girls by challenging the patriarchy.

Either way , it's not as simple as 'if you don't like it dont listen' . It's not about liking it, it's about the potential wider impact it will have, which will be greater / different because it's sung by a woman.

She does not speak for all of us.

@crunchermuncher

It depends whether you think feminism is women doing whatever they like, regardless of the impact on other women as girls,

Or

Making the world a better place for women and girls by challenging the patriarchy.

Either way , it's not as simple as 'if you don't like it dont listen' . It's not about liking it, it's about the potential wider impact it will have, which will be greater / different because it's sung by a woman.

She does not speak for all of us.

true

I have had similar discussions with women about how empowering performers like Beyonce are.

My stance is, are they empowering because they are making money doing something that they love? Yes. Of course, other women have done this too in the past.

Are they empowering because they choose to dress and perform in a way that is sexualised? I must admit that it is here that I cannot see the merit of this when they do this because 'sex sells'. The way they dress and perform has a great deal to do with their success. And how is showing young girls that using their body in this way to gain success, or even attention, empowering them?

I have not ever seen a good answer for this side of pop stars and actors 'empowering' girls and women. And I reject 'they are in control and doing it themselves' vs 'some agency or male manager is in control'.

I'm a lesbian woman, I don't watch porn, I think both of these woman are very, very attractive. People act like lesbians and bi women don't sexualised woman or enjoy this type of thing. It's all men.

to participate in their own abuse.

Right. Because if a woman knows a man has some money and has sex to get it, knowingly, or has sex because they get showered with gifts, it's abuse? How? You all treat sex like it's some complex, intimate, soul-searching type of deal. Like how dare a woman treat sex as a means to get something else? Maybe sex just ain't that big of a deal for them?

If I knew I'd get say £10k for shagging a guy, I would, and I'm not even into men

If a black person happened to get off on being beaten by a white one and made a song and video promoting it, would that be ok?

It isn't just about the individual it's about the social context. Men are used to expecting women to provide sex for money. Men are more than capable of taking sex without consent if they want to. Men have driven and benefited from the porn industry at the expense of woman for eons. This song says, 'yes that's all good'.

@ButterflyC

to participate in their own abuse.

Right. Because if a woman knows a man has some money and has sex to get it, knowingly, or has sex because they get showered with gifts, it's abuse? How? You all treat sex like it's some complex, intimate, soul-searching type of deal. Like how dare a woman treat sex as a means to get something else? Maybe sex just ain't that big of a deal for them?

If I knew I'd get say £10k for shagging a guy, I would, and I'm not even into men

So you pick six words out of my own comment and put your own spin on it. That’s a well thought out rebuttal. 🙄

Visually stunning. Not a man in sight.

I'm 71 but I still remember the purpose of youth being to shock. This seems to me to be building on all the things that have gone before. I must admit she's a pretty brave woman.

Jury's out for me but I'm not convinced that the words to songs actually have that much influence. Bob Dylans 'Times they are a changing' didn't bring the changes we expected and that was everywhere. Youth is entitled to make waves, entitled to shock, yes it is very sexualised but I don't think music translates into reality, people know the difference

I'm sure you'll disagree and I'm prepared to change my view but I can't get into a stew about this having been a major rebel in my own youth

I look back in fondness.

So you pick six words out of my own comment and put your own spin on it.

No. I'm disagreeing that it's abuse. Simple.

Visually stunning. Not a man in sight

Not a man in sight -correct. The man is in the background saying "whores in this house" all the way through the song.

@ButterflyC

So you pick six words out of my own comment and put your own spin on it.

No. I'm disagreeing that it's abuse. Simple.

I didn’t say the song was abuse. Simple.

Obviously your comprehension skills are a bit lacking.

Visually stunning.

It really isn’t. It’s a head-on collision between Tim Burton and Dr Seuss. It looks awful.

I didn’t say the song was abuse. Simple.

Obviously your comprehension skills are a bit lacking.

It seems yours are too dear, because I never said that you said that. I'm saying the whole "having sex for money" and talking about rough sex etc, being choked, is not abuse. Not partaking in their own abuse. Got it?

On an archetypal level the video resonates with various goddesses of love and sensuality

The water fountain and the water streaming from under the door of the mansion combined with the demonstrable love of luxurious items, the sex work related themes and the voluptuous beauty of the women in the video speaks of Oshun, Erzulie, Venus, Aphrodite, Inanna etc.

All of these goddesses are associted with water, rivers, opulence, sex, seduction etc.

They all demand offerings of expensive perfume, jewellery and other nice things

They are all demanding goddesses who let their followers know what they want and don't take no for an answer

On one level of course I can appreciate that the video is very pornified and superficial

On another level it makes the audience understand throughout that we are in the realm of the imaginary. This is not just hinted at it is made extremely explicit, with wall fittings that come to life, dangerous predatory cats strolling around and psychedelic themed colour schemes.

I don't think it is meant to reflect real life any more than cartoons or comic books usually do. It offers an escape from reality into a dream of archetypes.

I'm saying the whole "having sex for money" and talking about rough sex etc, being choked, is not abuse. Not partaking in their own abuse.

How do you know that those partaking in those behaviours aren’t doing it because they feel pressured into it because of the push for those behaviours being deemed normal? It’s a big assumption to make, saying it’s not abuse. Many girls and women are being bullied into those situations because the perpetrator has used videos such as this to ‘prove’ that it’s normal. Many women are trafficked into selling sex, so where you get the idea that it’s never abuse, is frankly astonishing, dear. Got it?

The male voice about wheres is really galling. Much better if it had been a female one, could've perhaps made it sound like a reclamation of the word. (Clutches at straws)

I find the video highly disturbing and abhorrent on every level. As a survivor of CSA, as a black woman as a mother of sons I am sick of it.

Firstly, make no doubt a large proportion of Cardi B's fans are children and I see this, and similar videos as sexual grooming akin to child abuse but enmasse, and just because it is women perpetuating it, does not give it a pass. When I was abused such casual 'soft' porn was not so readily available any vids I was made to watch had to be purchased. My abuser would have had a field day making me sit down to watch this video with me had it been available then, and told me - as he often did - 'look women enjoy it' only this is worse, because it was obvious even then that women were not agents in the material I was forced to watch. God help any young girls today, as they have no such mental get out clause.

As can be imagined I have bent over backwards trying to teach my sons that girls are not sex objects, and heavily vetted and put as much safeguards in place to prevent porn being accessible. But honestly what is the point? The message this sends to impressionable young boys is both toxic and confusing. Is this what women like? Do women want to be choked? Do women enjoy being whores?

And lastly, as a black woman I am sick of seeing them both externally objectified and objectifying themselves in rap culture. Black women are overlooked as victims of sexual abuse, they are abused in the music industry, there is an air of total disrespect of black women by powerful black men, black women face greater challenges to be taken seriously in the media and other high profile professional capacities, and I think it is a vicious self perpetuating cycle, where the only route for lots of black female singers is seen as being hyper-sexual. I am equally disgusted with women from other ethnicities doing the same thing, but I do take it more personally when it is black women.

Lastly, the imagery used throughout is disturbing to me. It bears correllation to things that have been mentioned in the media a lot regarding abuse cases.

I see absolutely nothing celebratory oe empowering about it, unless you mean the money flowing into Cardi B's account. Which is literally what her lyrics espouse - self-exploitation for cash, only she is throwing young (especially black) women under the bus who think her brand of sexual exploitation is something to aspire to.

Catherine I'm so sorry for your experiences.