Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kirsty Wark documentary about Alex Salmond sexual assault case

62 replies

Shedbuilder · 20/08/2020 21:21

Kirsty Wark takes a close look at the Alex Salmond trial this spring in which he was accused by 9 women of sexual assault and he walked away scot-free.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000lwld/the-trial-of-alex-salmond

I'm not Scottish, didn't know enough about it to have an informed opinion, but it stinks — and Nicola Sturgeon appears to be implicated. Why, you have to ask, has this been hidden away ay 11pm on a Monday night? It should have been on BBC1 at 9pm midweek.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000lwld/the-trial-of-alex-salmond

OP posts:
Shedbuilder · 21/08/2020 10:25

ConstantlySeekingHappiness, thanks for that Scottish input. Yes, I think the conspiracy theory was just a way of diverting attention from the actuality, which was that Scotland had been led by a womaniser with a drink problem who though it was okay to paw and molest and proposition his employees. Saying it was a conspiracy and they were all making it up is just a way of pretending nothing happened and silencing any discussion on whether it's okay for a boss to run his hands up the sides of a woman's breast or turn a pat on the back into bum stroke.

And I also applaud Wark for not adopting the botox/ facelift/ ultra-made up and groomed approach to ageing. I love seeing women of my own era looking as they naturally are.

OP posts:
DidoLamenting · 21/08/2020 12:55

@LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett

Treating it as an SNP civil war doesn't help either - it's bigger than that.
Oh I'm very happy for it to be treated as an SNO civil war.
LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 21/08/2020 17:41

@DidoLamenting can I ask why?

I'm not an SNP supporter - but this is my government. It speaks to the culture of my country. It's not just about some people not being happy with some other people's policy on referendum.

AnyOldPrion · 21/08/2020 18:42

Saying I remember from years ago, “Just because you’re paranoid, doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you.”

Just because Salmond was an example of your archetypal boozy, sleazy man, which obviously is “disappointing” (understatement alert) it doesn’t mean the women in this case were innocent victims, let down by the system. My personal suspicion would be that at least some of them were not his victims, but did indeed conspire to have him put away.

Anyone who frequents this board and thinks that that kind of political shenanigans is unlikely within the SNP hasn’t been listening. This case isn’t about women’s rights, but I’m fairly sure there’s a large overlap between the in-group who are pushing for men to be given women’s rights, and those bringing this case against a man who remains a threat to Sturgeon, who is firmly in their pocket.

BlackForestCake · 21/08/2020 21:41

Wark has a bit of a thing for Salmond. No idea if it's personal

Wark is Labour and is personal friends with senior Scottish Labour people. She is a talented journalist who was once widely respected, but why anyone thought she was a suitable person to produce a programme on this topic is a mystery.

bettybeans · 22/08/2020 00:12

CharleyParley has done a terrific job of breaking it down. It's such a complex situation and if you're not interested in the mechanics, minutiae and subterfuge of Scottish politics it's very easy to just go with "ah yeah sleazy boss". They interviewed hundreds of people trying to find victims or witnesses and the best they found was outlined above. There's lots of things nobody is allowed to say (because contempt of court) and which add layers to the whole story too. The one situation he admits is used to provide foundations for a narrative that is incredibly weak.

Should he as FM have behaved better? Aye. But that's it. I'd be the first to scream from the rooftops if he was deserving of any of this, my politics are not tribal and I don't have that sort of blind loyalty to any party. It all absolutely stinks though. And never underestimate just how ridiculously petty and unprofessional some media/journos can be.

bettybeans · 22/08/2020 00:15

Agreed @AnyOldPrion. There is a huge and very significant overlap. Several points of overlap too. The identity politics divide isn't the whole story but it's certainly a significant part of the story.

The SNP isn't coping well with power games at the moment. If they don't sort it out it'll be SNP themselves that present the biggest obstacle to independence. They're all over the place.

PapsofJura · 22/08/2020 01:00

I found the programme interesting and the court case wholly depressing.
The message to me as a female in Scotland is that it is ok for the most powerful man in Scotland, (at that time), to be touchy feely with more junior staff and there was no recourse. Quite a scary position for women to be in.

It will be interesting to find out the answer during the review as to whether female staff were not to work with him alone. Ignoring the politics of it all, that if true, is utterly horrific as what message does that give to all the other sleazy men out there.

bettybeans · 22/08/2020 01:10

I don't believe he was touchy feely in a general sort of creepy sense. I do think he was (and maybe still is) a tactile person. I think he also had one or two inappropriate relationships alongside that.

I also think he was arrogant and somewhat naive in the way he conducted himself while in office though.

NiceGerbil · 22/08/2020 01:17

Loads of different women.

I know what I think.

NiceGerbil · 22/08/2020 01:19

The idea that 9 different women agreed to lie to the police and the court for political reasons is to me less likely than him doing this stuff.

Just my view.

DidoLamenting · 22/08/2020 01:57

[quote LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett]@DidoLamenting can I ask why?

I'm not an SNP supporter - but this is my government. It speaks to the culture of my country. It's not just about some people not being happy with some other people's policy on referendum. [/quote]
I don't get all this "proud Scot" " culture of my country" stuff. This is an SNP problem. I'm not responsible for them

I loathe the SNP. If this damages them , great. Personally given what has happened with Covid anyone banging on about independence needs their head examined (even more than in normal times)

DidoLamenting · 22/08/2020 02:03

@NiceGerbil

The idea that 9 different women agreed to lie to the police and the court for political reasons is to me less likely than him doing this stuff.

Just my view.

I agree. I find AnyOldPrion's conspiracy theory wholly incredible.
Amortentia · 22/08/2020 02:17

Actually, I disagree that there’s something in it because 9 women were involved. I think the police messed this up. Having listened to the court reports each day you had to wonder why some of the complaints were put forward. I wonder how different the outcome would have been with a reduced number of women and only the more serious allegations.

But, he was found innocent and this was definitely a hit piece. It’s clear they thought he was going to be found guilty and went with that narrative. They shouldn’t have shown it.

The whole thing saddens me. I know women who have suffered brutal assaults and the police and the procurator fiscal have failed them by not proceeding with their case. Then you hear some of the stuff put forward in this case and think how did this get to court. This case has done damage to sexual assault cases.

AnyOldPrion · 22/08/2020 06:55

I find AnyOldPrion's conspiracy theory wholly incredible.

A few years ago, I’d have found it incredible too. But if you had told me back then, that councils in Scotland would bring in rules that said cross-dressers and transvestites must be allowed in women’s changing rooms and that the Scottish government would pay lobby groups and women’s shelters to lobby them to allow men to have women’s rights, simply because they signed a form, I’d have thought you were insane.

A small, but vocal clique, many of them young women, have managed the latter, so now I find myself very doubtful when I hear a court case was brought against a man who threatened their power and seems to have included at least one case where the woman was provably not there when she claims the incident occurred.

As I said before, anyone who reads this board regularly must surely have had their eyes opened to the fact that there are some deeply serious concerns about the current power play that’s occurring in Scotland.

ArabellaScott · 22/08/2020 07:40

'This case has done damage to sexual assault cases'. Yep. It should never have been brought to court.

The initial enquiry was thrown out and Salmond awarded costs of £500k. Then he is absolved in court and it is shown very clearly that some of the allegations were impossible, that is to say, completely made up. I'm not sure what else is needed to show that this is a politically motivated case.

Joanna Cherry is a supporter of Salmond, btw. Note the recent change in rules to stop her from running for FM.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 22/08/2020 07:41

The idea that 9 different women agreed to lie to the police and the court for political reasons is to me less likely than him doing this stuff.

So the defence witnesses who were present at some of the ocsassions (Inc female witnesses) lied instead?

It will be interesting to find out the answer during the review as to whether female staff were not to work with him alone.

The civil service woman refused to answer that question, and was backed up by the head of the committee.

AnyOldPrion · 22/08/2020 07:50

Joanna Cherry is a supporter of Salmond, btw. Note the recent change in rules to stop her from running for FM.

I’ve been busy recently and often absent from this board and Twitter and I seem to have missed this. Is there somewhere I can read about it?

PapsofJura · 22/08/2020 08:31

itsallgoingtobefine shocked to read that they have refused to answer this question, wonder what the reason was as I think that it’s a really important one!

ArabellaScott · 22/08/2020 08:39

www.thenational.scot/news/18618819.snp-nec-force-cherry-resign-mp-wants-stand-msp/

The NEC have been making some very shady moves recently. They're trying to oust certain politicians and using really contentious methods. There was a very interesting - and worrying - article on it posted here recently, I'll see if I can find it. Criticising various of SNPs actions, including the aligning of the civil service with the Scotgov, when it shd be scrupulously impartial.

ArabellaScott · 22/08/2020 08:41

news.stv.tv/politics/snp-mp-joanna-cherry-wont-seek-nomination-for-holyrood

More on Cherry.

ArabellaScott · 22/08/2020 08:44

Here's the other article. Apologies if this is more than anyone wants to know about the state of Scottish politics - I find it pretty worrying tbh.

sourcenews.scot/robin-mcalpine-the-foundations-of-scotlands-democracy-have-crumbled-and-you-should-worry/

CardsforKittens · 22/08/2020 10:03

I find it very disturbing that some of the charges are being minimised as not significant enough for a court case. Bringing multiple complaints from multiple women establishes a pattern of behaviour, which supports the requirement for corroboration.

As for a political conspiracy: for what purpose? Alex Salmond’s political career had run its course and he was spending most of his time on Russian TV when the complaints were made.

Anyone who tries to argue that this is all about SNP infighting, while ignoring the issue of the high percentage of acquittals in sexual assault trials, is probably deliberately obfuscating.

SocialMedea · 22/08/2020 10:23

Very interested in your comments on this anyoldprion as apart from anything else I know next to nothing about Scottish politics. May I ask you about this bit:

A small, but vocal clique, many of them young women, have managed the latter, so now I find myself very doubtful when I hear a court case was brought against a man who threatened their power..

Forgive me if I have massively got the wrong end of the stick but - are the "vocal clique" the ones pushing for self ID etc and is/was Alex Salmond gender critical and having none of it?

DidoLamenting · 22/08/2020 10:25

Joanna Cherry is a supporter of Salmond, btw. Note the recent change in rules to stop her from running for FM

I'm always surprised at the fawning over her on this board. No one "runs" for First Minister. She can choose to go for a Holyrood seat if she wants.

Swipe left for the next trending thread