My workplace has been Stonewalled. Completely new policy released. If anyone objects to sharing facilities with a transgender individual of the opposite sex, they will be the ones asked to move.

[iexpectedthis]

I am considering posting the paragraph in question, but its obviously a bit outing as it's a massive corporation.

It talks about being sent to use facilities on another floor if you object, so I am sure they are thinking about their massive offices in London.

I don't feel it will affect me personally on a day to day basis, but I am feeling down on reading the whole policy full of assigned at birth and stereotypes.

I could see this coming as we have had a lot of Stonewall input on diversity days, presentations in London offices featuring Pip Bunce and visits from Scottish trans groups to educate us.

Just a bit of a vent and asking for any thoughts on whether/how to question or challenge this :(

I wonder what would happen if all the women just used the men’s facilities.

Anyone object then all the women could say they felt trans at the time.

I suspect it'll be more of an issue in other areas than mine. But it's still infuriating that seemingly intelligent people can be convinced to implement all this without question.

Definitely ask to see their equality impact assessment. I doubt they’ve taken advice from any other affected group.

They may be breaking the HASAWA, get a copy and look at the no of toilets needed and when you need separate spaces.

I've said this before but start using the men's, but use them as you would a ladies toilet, so chat to the men at the urinal, wash your bloody pants in the sink and ask for a tampon machine to be installed as well as a disposal bin.

I think it just goes to show how, still, men expect women to do what they're told and don't expect them to argue about it and women are still prepared to go along with it, even if they know it's not right. Which just leaves us harpies and harridans and feminazis to fight for women's rights.

Toilets have always been unisex really - like you said, men often pop into the women's if they want to, no one stops them

Has it ever crossed your mind why women don't challenge men who are crossing boundaries and using women's single sex spaces?

I've never understood why they can't simply re-designate 'mens' loos as unisex?

Toilets have always been unisex really - like you said, men often pop into the women's if they want to, no one stops them.

No. That's NOT what I said. It is, in fact, the opposite of what I said!
Read carefully:
They made the toilets on our floor unisex.
THEN the men started using it.
Men, in my experience, have never "just popped into the ladies"! If the toilet had a dress shape on the door, no, they wouldn't go in. Even young lads know this. Don't walk into the ladies, and don't ever go in a ladies handbag . My sons would never do either, it's just drummed into most properly brought up males.
Men presenting as women have, in the past, sometimes used the women's toilets, but regular men? No.

It would depend on the quality of the toilets. In my work the most recent toilets are unisex but I have to say they are quite nice. Inidividual cubicle behind a screening wall. Floor to ceiling doors and sink in each one with a mirror. Women use them in preference to our women only toilets as they're so nice and sparkly new.

gutentag Toilets have not always been unisex 'really' in the sense that if, 20 years ago, you saw someone obviously male going into the ladies' toilets (let's say in a pub, for the sake of argument), this would be seen as strange and probably suspicious behaviour. You could alert the barman and said barman would be perfectly free to take steps to sort it out (neither party would fear accusations of bigotry or being sued for discrimination).

Best case scenario, it turns out the man in question has misread the sign/been caught short and couldn't find the gents and comes out red-faced and apologetic. Worst case scenario, man in question had slipped in there with the intention of attacking the next woman or girl somewhere out of public view (which unfortunately had indeed happened). In that case, the fact that it is not seen as normal for a male to enter a female-onky space, the fact a member of the public felt free to report the bloke's entry and the fact the barman felt free to go and get him out means that an attack is avoided. One layer of the Swiss cheese approach to safeguarding saves the day.

I expect people can explain this more elegantly than I, but in terms of safety that's the layer of social convention safeguarding that is being removed in the case of public toilets, I think?

How much of an actual impact that has on rates of crime in public bathrooms day to day, I couldn't say but I think it's worth some consideration, particularly in view of the vastly different offending rates between females and males, and The Times report about rates of crime in unisex vs single-sex changing rooms that was published following an FOI request not too long ago.

@PronounssheRa

Toilets have always been unisex really - like you said, men often pop into the women's if they want to, no one stops them

Has it ever crossed your mind why women don't challenge men who are crossing boundaries and using women's single sex spaces?

I've never, ever, seen a man in a woman's toilet. Maybe I've seen a transwoman, but if so, it was one who passed really well.

If I did see a man in there I would not say a word. I certainly wouldn't try to stop him. I suspect most women would not.
But not speaking up does not mean that we are just fine with men in our loos. It's not (only) about assault. It's about privacy, as has often been said before. I used to have very heavy periods and it would have been embarrassing meeting a man in the loo if I had blood stains on my clothes.

Toilets have always been unisex really

No. They have not. That is a false statement. There has always been explicit demarcation and sex segregated toilets. Until now. An aggressive lobby took a battering ram to women's sex segregated spaces. Your denial that this is what has happened doesn't change external reality. External reality exists irrespective of your failure to acknowledge it.

I'm sorry you have to face this OP and that I don't have anything more helpful to add to the suggestions above.

I feel very lucky that when I worked in an office it was in an era when nobody would have dreamed of mucking about with the bog standard men, women and disabled designations.

Every morning , at various intervals within the first hour of business, the three senior male colleagues with offices near mine would make their way to the gents armed with a newspaper for their morning poo. It was an office joke amongst the junior staff.

Most of the staff were young and female, like me. I had to deal with periods, UTIs, and even a miscarriage in the loos at work. I would not have wanted to share them with the men in my office or walk down three floors to women only toilets.

@iexpectedthis

I suspect it'll be more of an issue in other areas than mine. But it's still infuriating that seemingly intelligent people can be convinced to implement all this without question.

I would question the intelligence of people who take inclusivity advice from a privileged, cross-dressing male who accepts accolades 'as a woman' and calls women who object to him winning women's awards "terfs".

Yet another case of "so open-minded that their brains fell out".

with this being a large company presumably they will have female staff from various religious backgrounds - it may be that their faith doesn't allow them the option to use the mixed sex facilities so it will be discriminatory against them as well.

Oh fgs.

As well as reading the new info we can have a Stonewall training session and watch the video with Pip Bunce.

We can learn all about gender identities. Yay.

in fact, would it be the case that any organisation designating mixed sex facilities are automatically discriminating against men and women on religious grounds? This would be limiting their employment opportunities etc? Obviously, discriminating against women on the grounds of their sex is bad enough but the religious aspect is very important to many people and you'd think at the very least they'd check.

I'm sure that they've run this past their insurance company and that they are fine with the additional risks? Probably not.....

So...does this just apply to one site and floor and does it mean unisex? When that staff member uses a different site or training day/overnight/away day what facility will be used? Staff gym or changing room (if there is one)? At after work team drinks or say a Christmas party venue (when people have been drinking esp) will your employer have a policy on guests or non employee use of facilities in external venues? Your employer has a duty of care in any event related to work.

it’s great that they are looking for ways to make this work for everyone but it is a big deal.

Could you raise any issues as ‘asking for a friend’? I know it’s a cliche but it is easier.

I'll try to think of what i can or need to do.

It's shared as a training resource but states things as facts that I do not beleive.

I have found a paragraph that states that it is not contractual and does not form part of the employee terms and conditions and may be withdrawn or altered at company discretion. So maybe they have talked to the solicitors.

People are already falling over themselves on the intranet to talk about how great it is.

If they are referring to having been assigned a gender at birth, I would be asking how to find out where mine is recorded. There is no gender on the birth certificates I can find. Until you know that you will not be able to identify how you got into the policy.

Infuriating. Not a thought for those women who cannot share spaces with men, for disabled women who have to use another floor if they are uncomfortable, and for women in general who simply don't want yo share with men.

I would send an anonymous letter to HR, relaying the sensible points in this thread (obvs not Sapphos' bias) saying you have been made to feel so excluded and prejudiced against that you cannot write in your own name.

My employer has just drunk the kool aid. New transgender policy is the same on toilet facilities and they are encouraging people to use preferred gender pronouns and talking about assigned gender at birth.

I have asked for an equality impact assessment and suggested gender neutral third spaces but am just not being heard. Where do we go from here?

People are already falling over themselves on the intranet to talk about how great it is.

We'll see. Suspect this is virtue signalling - give it a few weeks until Bernard from accounts who feels like Betty on Tuesdays, has been in the next cubicle for a little too long. I'm thinking NSPCC rubber wankman.

Our female loos were made unisex. The males piddled on the floor and urinated with the cubicle doors open. We successfully changed them back.

Most decent men don't want to share either.