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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender Vikings

108 replies

Igneococcus · 16/08/2020 06:38

Because no woman ever, anywhere could possible be or have been a fighter:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9d5d3654-de3c-11ea-a18f-15f41f6d2fa7?shareToken=e20112ff611d35bbb9ea3a4900f4b37f

OP posts:
DianasLasso · 16/08/2020 14:33

It is such crap historiography to think that one should interpret the past in terms of present ideology.

And enraging that any woman who stepped outside of the socially sanctioned sex-stereotypes her culture offered her must have "really been a man..."

(As an aside - less of the "women were only homemakers" stuff would be good too. In a society where you had to grow your own food, preserve stuff to last your family through the winter without starving, weave and sew the clothes to make sure they didn't freeze - homemaking was a vital and very highly skilled undertaking. Projecting a mid 20th century housewife-undertaking-make-work-while-hubby-does-the-important-stuff gloss onto it doesn't do the women of the past any favours either.)

FWRLurker · 16/08/2020 14:38

Btw I only use scare quotes around intersectionality there because the term is being misused. “Women” does not intersect with “men”. Black women are women so the new rule does not include them any better than it did previously.

Instead “women’s studies” is now actually “3/4 men’s studies as long as those men are not white and straight”.

SerendipityJane · 16/08/2020 14:43

No idea about Vikings, but it was fascinating to read that archaeologists had uncovered suggestions that Galli made it to Britain in later Roman times.

www.britannica.com/topic/Galli-ancient-priests

Galli, singular Gallus, priests, often temple attendants or wandering mendicants, of the ancient Asiatic deity, the Great Mother of the Gods, known as Cybele, or Agdistis, in Greek and Latin literature. The Galli were eunuchs attired in female garb, with long hair fragrant with ointment. Together with priestesses, they celebrated the Great Mother’s rites with wild music and dancing until their frenzied excitement found its culmination in self-scourging, self-laceration, or exhaustion. Self-emasculation by candidates for the priesthood sometimes accompanied this delirium of worship.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/1999734.stm

Archaeologists in North Yorkshire have discovered the skeleton of a cross-dressing eunuch dating back to the 4th Century AD.

Ylvamoon · 16/08/2020 14:46

... and don't forget Pope Joan did never exist either, (alongside Queen Elizabeth I and Queen Victoria).
(I was fascinated by the story in my late teens and it is quite astounding how many male scholars put her down as fiction... but ther mustbesometruthin the story. )

TyroSaysMeow · 16/08/2020 14:47

The thing is, transgressing local gender norms isn't a new thing.

The labelling of females who transgress at nonwomen, unpeople, lesser, other - this isn't a new thing.

The thing that's new is the insistence that what made these females other is that they were men with a birth defect. In previous generations they were commonly viewed by sexist society as women with a birth defect.

CharlieParley · 16/08/2020 14:49

But the history world was shaken three years ago when it emerged that a burial site that had been assumed to belong to a high-status warrior from the mid-900s housed a female skeleton.

This is such a brazen misrepresentation of what happened. They fucking suspected all along there were female skeletal remains in that grave, and at least since the 70s the assumption that this was a male was openly questioned as incorrect. But until a first modern analysis in 2013 confirmed that these bones were female, they adamantly denied they could be. Because no woman is a warrior. And that's that.

And they kept on fighting over this, until the 2017 analysis proved unequivocally that this was a female skeleton. Immediately after that result, some archaeologists and historians moved from denying the logical conclusion - that this was a female warrior - to making all kinds of outlandish claims to explain away the presence of female remains with male-coded grave goods and the complete absence of male bones and female-coded grave goods.

Most notably active in that was a female professor at the University of Nottingham. She accused the 2017 team of loving the idea of women warriors so much that they were making the evidence fit their claims.

Now scholars are exploring whether this could mean that the Norse people had transgender members

Well of course they are. That is what female erasure means after all. Since we do not exist as a sex class, none of us can ever have achieved extraordinary success as women in a man's world.

StandWithYou · 16/08/2020 14:51

Wait for Season 4 of The Last Kingdom when Heston turns out to be a transman.

LillianBland · 16/08/2020 14:54

@nauticant

For anyone interested in the experiences of woman who go to war, this is the most extraordinary book:

www.penguin.co.uk/books/295/295606/the-unwomanly-face-of-war/9780141983530.html

It is so powerful I could only read it in short bursts. I've never read anything else like it.

Thanks for that book recommendation, nauticant. My lads are always asking me what I want for Christmas, so that’s going on the list.
LadyFlumpalot · 16/08/2020 14:58

If the fact that I like cars, swords, computers, and I work in STEM means that I'm ACTUALLY a man, does that mean I can have a pay rise?

Gottalife · 16/08/2020 14:59

I wonder if there were objections by Viking wives to women serving on Viking ships like happened with our Royal Navy in 1990.

DianasLasso · 16/08/2020 15:00

The thing that's new is the insistence that what made these females other is that they were men with a birth defect. In previous generations they were commonly viewed by sexist society as women with a birth defect.

Ain't that the truth. We've gone from women transgressing societal sex-stereotypes means "something is wrong with their lady-brains" to meaning "their gentleman-brain unfortunately got trapped in one of those inferior, penis-free bodies".

LillianBland · 16/08/2020 15:14

@SerendipityJane

No idea about Vikings, but it was fascinating to read that archaeologists had uncovered suggestions that Galli made it to Britain in later Roman times.

www.britannica.com/topic/Galli-ancient-priests

Galli, singular Gallus, priests, often temple attendants or wandering mendicants, of the ancient Asiatic deity, the Great Mother of the Gods, known as Cybele, or Agdistis, in Greek and Latin literature. The Galli were eunuchs attired in female garb, with long hair fragrant with ointment. Together with priestesses, they celebrated the Great Mother’s rites with wild music and dancing until their frenzied excitement found its culmination in self-scourging, self-laceration, or exhaustion. Self-emasculation by candidates for the priesthood sometimes accompanied this delirium of worship.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/1999734.stm

Archaeologists in North Yorkshire have discovered the skeleton of a cross-dressing eunuch dating back to the 4th Century AD.

Yes, the story of the fanatical males who castrated themselves in the belief that the goddess’s lover bleed to death after castrating himself to prove his love for her, is fascinating. However, it has nothing to do with them actually being trans. The religion consisted of priests who dressed as female goddesses to show their devotion to and it also consisted of priestess. Interestingly, they sacrificed children in order to prove their devotion.
NiceGerbil · 16/08/2020 15:15

Not RTFT

The find the article refers to,

I don't think they mention that the skeleton was assumed to be male for years because of the armour etc. Due to underlying sexist assumptions.

Then the DNA showed it was a woman. Cue lots of freak out. A female Viking warrior? What the hell? There must be an explanation for this that can get us back to a more comfortable view of what this is all about.

And voila! She was a man after all, trans! Everyone can relax again.

LillianBland · 16/08/2020 15:25

@NiceGerbil

Not RTFT

The find the article refers to,

I don't think they mention that the skeleton was assumed to be male for years because of the armour etc. Due to underlying sexist assumptions.

Then the DNA showed it was a woman. Cue lots of freak out. A female Viking warrior? What the hell? There must be an explanation for this that can get us back to a more comfortable view of what this is all about.

And voila! She was a man after all, trans! Everyone can relax again.

Exactly. Imagine if they had to acknowledge that women actually went to war and didn’t all follow ‘gender roles’! They would have to rethink their attitude towards females. Much easier to trans the strong women away.
SonEtLumiere · 16/08/2020 15:29

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SteppedOnBloodyLego · 16/08/2020 18:38

»Amy Jefford Franks, an academic who is researching gender and pre-Christian Scandinavian religion and who presents the Vikings are Gay! podcast, said: “It is debated, but my view is that there were transgender Vikings and there were queer Vikings and that, while it was not widespread, it was on the fringes of acceptable culture.»

Amy Jefford-Franks works for Stonewall.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 16/08/2020 19:05

The problem is that when people like her come out with such ideas your only response can be "yeah, cos it isn't new. There will always have been people who didn't fit their society's idea if male or female"

Because it's impossible to think otherwise.

That doesn't make her a genius, it just means she is recycling old information in new clothes. But whilst we can see it there is a significant swathe of our current society that won't hear that, will insist trans are groundbreaking and new... even whilst desperately pointing back into history shrieking "trans".

It just another example of cognitive dissonance in action. The joys of a splintered mind!

SerenityNowwwww · 16/08/2020 19:46

I would love to have a time machine to send this ‘theorist’ back in time to put their theory to the woman herself.

SerenityNowwwww · 16/08/2020 19:47

I was watching a documentary about Queen Elizabeth 1st... oh yes, the theory was also suggested there.

TheHeartbeat · 16/08/2020 21:51

Why stop there? Make all the Viking’s LGBTQIA and get to the point you’re actually trying to make Stonewall.

#MarshaPJohnsonWasADragQueen #NowThatsAnInconvenientTruth

DianasLasso · 16/08/2020 22:00

@TheHeartbeat

Why stop there? Make all the Viking’s LGBTQIA and get to the point you’re actually trying to make Stonewall.

#MarshaPJohnsonWasADragQueen #NowThatsAnInconvenientTruth

Well, the Vikings we possibly mistakenly identify as male did have long hair which they braided, so...
AnyOldPrion · 16/08/2020 22:06

“Price dismissed the idea that this is historians projecting contemporary values onto the past“

Price can dismiss it all he likes, but one thing is solid fact, and that is that even five years ago, nobody would have suggested such a thing.

This is so sickening to those of us who’ve spent a lifetime fighting against femininity, and have looked to these role models from the past for inspiration, and now selfish gits are stealing them and saying they were men all along. Well they can bugger right off.

stumbledin · 16/08/2020 23:57

I thought people had given up on this silly childish atttempt at transing the past.

But if it is allowed to continue we can look forward to finding out that out mothers / grandmothers who took on so many "male" roles in WWII were all in fact trans (well at least for 5 - 6 years).

Throught history some women have been accepted or disguised themselves to be in the "male" sphere. It is such contrived nonsense.

So desparate to validate their illogical position they just go over the the top - and as ever just so they are totally trapped in the reactionary mind set of gender roles being real.

Which reminds me I forgot to watch the Naked Civil Servant which was on tv tonight.

No doubt the trans activists would say Quentin Crisp was really a trans woman that society cruelly denied the right to "cahnge sex". Rather than appreciating him for his bravery in accepting his bilogical maleness but totally refusing to live by the male gender rules society sad he should have.

Antibles · 17/08/2020 00:09

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NiceGerbil · 17/08/2020 13:06

Naked civil servant is a great film