Laverne Cox on Brene Brown's podcast

[Lottapianos]

Oh lord, it was bad. You may say I only have myself to blame, and you would be right, and I knew the episode would annoy me, but I went in anyway!

Jesus, the fawning. I do like Brene Brown a lot, but she is a terrible fawner and boy did she turn it up to 11 with Laverne! So proud to refer to Laverne as 'my friend', praising Laverne's 'wonderful intellect' , basically on her knees in awe the whole way through

There was lots of tearful listing of names of transwomen who have been murdered - fine, those are sickening crimes and its perfectly legitimate to mention them . JK Rowling got mentioned a couple of times with a sigh and you could hear the eye roll- none of the content of what Rowling actually wrote or tweeted of course, just 'the JK Rowling issue' like shes the antichrist or something

Then the issue of women wanting to keep toilets etc as single sex spaces. Brene just DOESN'T GET IT and TWAW and she 'identifies as a woman' (no Brene, you just ARE a woman) and women need to remember that 'fear is not real, it's just a feeling'. Nice 🙄 then Laverne adds that 'ciswomen' need to carry out some 'self reflection' about why we're so het up about TW popping into women's toilets for a little old wee or whatever. Like, how does it affect us, really? And 'where is the love?'
we're all supposed to be rightly horrified by violence against transwomen, but heaven forbid that we acknowledge the violence and threats faced by women every single day

So yeah, it was profound. Shame on Brene Brown for enabling this shit - shes a bright, well educated women who is pretending to be stupid. Cox came across as arrogant and entitled, disguised with fake-bewildered, breathy delivery, and having zero empathy or understanding for women, and zero interest in engaging with women's very real concerns. And not enormously stable emotionally

I listened so you dont have to just felt the need to get it off my chest!

You are a Saint

Or a fool!

thanks I've had my concerns about Brene for a while ... but good to know I can avoid...

Glad I'd already unsubscribed for the fawning then....

I'm not GC but feel the pain of listening to a sycophantic interview. It's always a really bad start to a discussion. You don't tend to get any insight from the subject because it's all praise praise praise.

I am not in the better of having read-out the crime, of which Synthia Chyna Blast is guilty.
Rape, torture and murder of a 13year old. www.womenarehuman.com/vicious-child-rapist-murderer-demands-sex-change-freedom-synthia-china-blast/

There is no world in which I would advocate for their release.

It tells a lot about the mindset of Laverne Cox that Laverne would lend any support to Synthia's case. And, whilst Laverne may have retracted their support, it really really shouldn't have happened in the first place.

I have, until now, been a fan of Brene Brown and have recommended her books to many.
Unfortunately, this is a massive lapse in judgement on her part.
Brene's background is in Social Work.
As such, she has a duty to be aware of child protection, and she should be aware of how manipulation and coercion works.
It is all too easy to be manipulated to collude in abuse at an individual or societal level.
I am so disappointed by her.

'fear is not real, it's just a feeling'.

How fucking insulting. Fear is an instinct, it's not something we've made up out of thin air. Plenty of women have real reason to fear men. Because of being raped, sexually assaulted, violently abused. Even if a woman has never experienced those, we know it's still a massive possibility.

Why should a woman who has been the victim of male violence have to walk into a toilet/changing room (a small enclosed space) and be faced with someone who is obviously a biological man. How are we supposed to know who is genuine and who is not?

Self reflection? Fuck off. I think the trans community need to do some serious reflecting. Maybe start with asking themselves why they're so determined to make women feel as uncomfortable as possible-they could petition for 3rd spaces. I'd gladly join that petition. But that doesn't seem as fun as demanding women give up theirs, does it?

Maybe then they could reflect on why they're petitioning to keep TW in women's sports when it's been proven they maintain a significant (and possibly dangerous) advantage. Ask themselves why they're happy to cheat women out of achievements, and potentially hurt women in the process.

Then they could reflect on why they think rape and death threats are an appropriate way to communicate with any woman (never men) who they disagree with.

That's who needs to take a look at themselves, not women who, shock horror ,just want to keep a few fucking spaces for ourselves. Funny no one ever wants to publicly acknowledge the behaviour of the other side though, eh?

Oh, for flips sake, proof reading.

"for having read about"

Lottapianos YES YES YES

Agree Vermeil, it's just endless demanding. I want all of the things all of the time because I say so

Yup, and screw anybody else 😕

The thing with Laverne Cox and Indya Moore I think is that they work in a field were they thought all their hopes and dreams would come true. (Maybe Laverne felt winning that Emmy was more a trans-story prize instead of real acting.)

They thought them being what they are would only help them stand out. Now that they’ve come to realise “No you won’t play Storm in the new X-men, The new Catwoman or Nakia in Black Panther.” I think they take out their frustrations on women.

Also, seeing all the support Halle Bailey got for getting the role of the Little Mermaid must have been stingy too. “So she gets to be different but I can’t?!?!! screw cis-women!!!” Okay maybe that’s a bit too conspiracy-theory.

'Maybe Laverne felt winning that Emmy was more a trans-story prize instead of real acting'

Well Laverne is a bloody awful, wooden actor to be fair!

I've always found Brown's approach dangerous e.g. for people in DV situations or being burnt out by an employer. Telling everyone to open up and show their vulnerabilities. Sadly many of us do not live in a safe, fluffy world where letting someone know your vulnerability is safe, from employers to narc partners, if you are not in the right place there's a reason you hide your vulnerability.

'Sadly many of us do not live in a safe, fluffy world where letting someone know your vulnerability is safe '

You're right. I had a situation at work recently where there was pressure for everyone in the team to open up emotionally, share, let it all hang out. I really tried to 'embrace vulnerability' etc but decided it was safer to keep my head down and my thoughts to myself. I think it was the right call

Yes - vulnerability vs boundaries is a balancing act.

It requires sophisticated inter-personal skills.

She (Brown) does have good points to make about men and the societal pressure to always be on-duty, always be the provider at the expense of being available in their family relationships.

Vulnerability does not equal weak.

If being vulnerable opens you up to being preyed upon, then it's not appropriate (e.g. in work setting, relationships with a power imbalance)

Vulnerability in the service of better relationships via increased connection and recognising shared humanity, that is fine.

But, as I said, it's sophisticated high-wire level interpersonal skills.

Fear is not real?

It's so depressing when it comes from someone you have deeply respected in the past 😔.
There's a bunch of American women who are all TWAW but also come from a lefty feminist, be kind, be true, be vulnerable, love God etc background. It's brené brown, Glennon Doyle, Cheryl strayed and Elizabeth Gilbert and they all worship the ground Oprah walks on. None of them vary from this position and I think they can't deviate from it because they would be seen as trump supporters. The cognitive dissonance is shocking when they'll say stuff about girls standing up for themselves and taking up space but then budge up for men who call themselves women.
E.g. Glennon Doyle wrote "Many of us say “I feel” because “I know” comes across strongly and we are socialized to comfort, not create discomfort. We want to be liked. We want to be trusted. So we downplay our strengths to avoid threatening anyone and invoking disdain... We temper, qualify, and discount our opinions... We step out of the way... We ask if our ideas make sense instead of assuming they do. We apologize for… everything.” - obviously Glennon is saying women shouldn't be doing this but they are literally asking women to do this when they let Laverne tell them Laverne has a right to be in their bathrooms. They have let millions of American women down.

Fear is a feeling, and feelings aren't real, but when a man says I feel like a woman, that's completely real and "valid"? Okay... Not forgetting that males who feel they are women also claim to feel too afraid to use the men's loos - I guess that fear isn't real either?

When they say feelings aren't real, what they mean is 'men's feelings are real and important but women are only allowed feelings when it doesn't inconvenience anyone else.' Great feminist message there.

I've read Brene Brown, and I have to say I don't really agree with her fundamental premise about shame, fear and vulnerability.

My take on it is that if you feel a sense of shame or vulnerability about a situation, it's probably a good idea to ask yourself why you feel it - - because there will be a reason and it might be a damn good one. I have a problem with people that exort others to ignore the messages their subconscious and instinct are giving them.

I also think Brown doesn't address how the dynamics of society or community work, and why people may find themselves in certain situations.

But then I'm probably biased because I know someone who publicly raves about Brown and "connection" in terms of tackling his depression. The thing is this person found himself in such a situation because he blew up his somewhat charmed life by pathologically lying about himself and other people in a very malicious fashion in order to achieve professional success - - and he eventually got found out.

Seeing this side of how Brown's work can be abused in order to ignore very valid reasons for feeling shame or fear, I'm not surprised she has no comprehension of why women may not want to find themselves in vulnerable situations with males they do not know.