Mermaids are running the metaphorical shredders.

[ToriaPumpkin]

Mermaids have updated their guidance om puberty blockers, now stating they are "believed" to be reversible.

twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1293260663742136322?s=19

Thankfully, when it comes to a civil claim, if the NHS's defence was "we simply didn't know they were bad", that would not hold because the evidence was all there, they just chose not to look.

I thought the NHS pages used to read as if they were written by mermaids or gires .

I haven't read the Lupron article I posted in a while, but I think it only mentions girls/women, although I'm not sure if the side effects only happen in girls. Are only girls treated for precocious puberty? Or is this a other symptom of drug testing not properly encompassing the different biology of women?

@NearlyGranny

The language around the use of cross-sex hormones, too, labelling their use HRT, to make it sound like the boon this has been to some women in their menopause and post-monopause. But if the hormones are cross-sex, they're not replacing something that was once there, it's introducing something new.

(I know we all have all the hormones, some in very limited amounts depending on our sex, but the level and balance are unprecedented with cross-sex treatment.)

that was how Cheryl Morgan referred to it when she gave a talk on the menopause to women in Bristol about her experiences as a trans woman on 'HRT'.
A misleading and inaccurate way of presenting it - I'm struggling to think of any other area of medicine where such a lack of clarity/misinformation is allowed to flourish. As an aside, I was watching 24 Hours in A&E last night and a little boy was rushed in with internal bleeding and needed an emergency transfusion - I wondered how it would have hindered his treatment if he was presenting as a trans girl (as per recent Netflix show) with the doctors having to not only deal with a complex medical emergency but cope with the cognitive dissonance of the conflicting presentation and ensure that they don't give a dangerous treatment (like giving female blood to a male that could be deadly if she has been pregnant) - just so dangerous.

@Datun

So who is it who is responsible for saying that they are reversible?

Who advised the NHS? Was it Mermaids? And if so who advised them? GIDS? Where did they get their information?

The Newsnight documentary implied that the Tavistock was coming under pressure from trans lobby groups. Does that translate to misinformation about puberty blockers?

Where has the buck actually stopped?

@Datun

It's GIDS advising NHS.

NHS website says

Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria.
Although the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) advises this is a physically reversible treatment if stopped, it is not known what the psychological effects may be.

(My bold)

According to the Lupron victims hub there have been class actions going back to 2003 and individual cases going back to 1994. This is a drug mired in controversy for decades and yet it appears that the NHS or possibly GIDS have taken instruction from a lobby group in its availability to adolescents.

Where is the sense of accountability? No wonder the Tavistock had so many people quit last year.

This is how Lupron is to be handled due to its toxicity:
"Leuprolide can pass into body fluids (urine, feces, vomit). For at least 48 hours after you receive a dose, avoid allowing your body fluids to come into contact with your hands or other surfaces. Caregivers should wear rubber gloves while cleaning up a patient's body fluids, handling contaminated trash or laundry or changing diapers. Wash hands before and after removing gloves. Wash soiled clothing and linens separately from other laundry."

www.lupronvictimshub.com/lawsuits.html For anyone who wants to read about the reported side effects or lawsuits that have been raised.

[quote CallarMorvern]We do unfortunately know from treating precocious puberty.
www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/[/quote]
This is interesting thanks for taking the time

This is how Lupron is to be handled due to its toxicity

I remember seeing a YouTube clip with a transman talking about a syringe with 2 parts you have to mix together before use and requiring gloves to handle. It makes it really hit home why on earth you would take a healthy child's body and inject sometnung the toxic into it.

Do they have to stay off school for 2 days after? It wouldn't be safe to send them while they are still excretinf the drug surely?

I think, for clarity, we should be clear that Lupron is used in the US. I believe it is a different drug here, but the same kind, if that makes sense. Important to dot the i's on this in case the zealots decide to quibble about specific brand names.

VirginiaComet
This is interesting thanks for taking the time

Can't take the credit really, I've had it bookmarked since someone else on Mumsnet shared it. I was so horrified that I saved it.

This is quoted from Transgender Trend.
"The UK endocrinologists at GIDS prescribe the GnRH analog called Triptorelin. Although slightly different to Lupron all these drugs are in the same class of GnRH analogs and all have the same mechanism of action. The mechanistic safety issues will most likely apply to the whole class of drugs."

Thankfully, when it comes to a civil claim, if the NHS's defence was "we simply didn't know they were bad", that would not hold because the evidence was all there, they just chose not to look.

Have a look at what happened in the contaminated blood products scandal:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_blood_scandal_in_the_United_Kingdom

There was awareness of the problem in the early 80s, if not earlier, and it's only now, decades later, that victims are finally being allowed to properly pursue their claims in the UK courts. Obviously much of the evidence to help their cases has been destroyed over those decades. Also, many of the potential claimants have died.

This is just such a scandal that we all foretold but were told we were bigots about. I really recommend watching for Kellie-Jay Keen's analysis of the infamous Susie Green TED talk. It fills in the background of the Mermaids CEO. It sounds like her child's preference for "girls toys" and thus insistence that they were a girl was in relation to the homophobic and misogynistic way their dad handled the toy preference. All the lawsuits in the world won't get back these young people's full adulthood, it's so sad and frustrating that this didn't happen sooner.

• SheWhoMustNotBeHeard

Datun
So who is it who is responsible for saying that they are reversible?

Who advised the NHS? Was it Mermaids? And if so who advised them? GIDS? Where did they get their information?

The Newsnight documentary implied that the Tavistock was coming under pressure from trans lobby groups. Does that translate to misinformation about puberty blockers?

Where has the buck actually stopped?

@Datun

It's GIDS advising NHS.

NHS website says

Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria.
Although the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) advises this is a physically reversible treatment if stopped, it is not known what the psychological effects may be.

(My bold)*

And GIDS are part of the Tavistock, who have come under pressure from 'activists'.

quillette.com/2020/01/17/why-i-resigned-from-tavistock-trans-identified-children-need-therapy-not-just-affirmation-and-drugs/

My question is, where did this all start? It seems as though pressure groups have influenced GIDS/Tavi who have influenced the NHS, who have assured patients that blockers are entirely reversible.

It's very concerning that the BBC still have this up on iPlayer: Leo: Becoming a Trans Man - Leo's mum is shown injecting her 15 year old child with puberty blockers, declaring that they aren't irreversible. Who told her this? GIDS?

I don't know much about all of this tbh, suffice to say I'm horrified that drugs with such severe side effects were being recommended for use in children.
I've read some stuff by Transgender Trend on twitter and they seem to talk a lot of sense regarding trans.
Those poor children.

Mrs Jarmin, in the first 'I am Leo',(that is no longer up on iplayer) Polly Carmichael told Leo that PB are a just a pause button.

Wow I've found the exact clip... "it's like a pause button" - Polly Carmichael, I don't know what to say to you but you'll find out from lawyers soon enough.

@Datun. Ah, I see what you mean. It's a complete mess. When the shit hits the fan, they will all be pointing fingers at each other.

Mermaids talk about GIDS and "a body of international research" consider PBS to be physically reversible. No indication who has done the research and no mention of brain development and psychological issues.

It's the bare minimum information.

pressure groups have influenced GIDS/Tavi who have influenced the NHS, who have assured patients that blockers are entirely reversible.

I don't have the Times link but one of the first whistle blowing to them around the Tavistock in 2018? Described how mermaids residentials had clinicians from the Tavistock visiting them to give talks but would also be pressurised by parents who could unofficially spend time with them. The residentials are extremely concerning to me, as are the forums and private email/ chat facilities.

I wish I'd book marked a lot of threads where this stuff was discussed a couple of years ago.

The other thing to consider is that the nhs technically follow the watchful waiting approach, where as international / US approaches are confirmation, which mermaids supports.

The us don't have the same laws protecting discrimination against gender reassignment which adds to the ferocity of views about what is transphobic or not amongst tra groups.

If puberty blockers are irreversible wouldn't we know that from their use to treat precocious puberty?

I believe one reason for using PBs in children with pernicious puberty is to allow them to grow more (as growth ceases at the end of puberty and can result in short adult stature). This might be seen to be a desirable intervention but it is not a reversible one.

And I believe there's some discussion about whether it is in the best interest of the child in that case sometimes.

@Signalbox

If puberty blockers are irreversible wouldn't we know that from their use to treat precocious puberty?

I believe one reason for using PBs in children with pernicious puberty is to allow them to grow more (as growth ceases at the end of puberty and can result in short adult stature). This might be seen to be a desirable intervention but it is not a reversible one.

My cousin has precious puberty and is very short as a result of this. My auntie was told that they don’t use puberty blockers as the risks were too high.

I was prescribed GnRh analogues for endometriosis as I had an aggressive form of it.

I took 2 different ones due to a supply issue with one of them 2 months into my 6 month treatment. I was also prescribed HRT to combat any bone density loss. I was 27 years old.

Obviously leaflets change for medicines but the way I believe it was told to me was "most women" go on to ovulate again shortly after stopping the medicine. Which at 27 was a huge concern as Dh and I wanted children.

The next drug they could give me was an androgen and my gynae said that there were huge risks with irreversible side effect such as facial hair and a deepening of my voice, so we refused that next step.

I took Synarel as a nasal spray and Buserelin.