Mermaids are running the metaphorical shredders.

[ToriaPumpkin]

Mermaids have updated their guidance om puberty blockers, now stating they are "believed" to be reversible.

twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1293260663742136322?s=19

@VirginiaComet

If puberty blockers are irreversible wouldn't we know that from their use to treat precocious puberty?

Very different using them for 2 years from ages 7 or 8 in precocious puberty, than using them from eg 11 to 17 (when bones are growing, etc). The effects of the latter has never been studied, no children have taken them that long then stopped to see what happens. This (GIDS treatment protocol) is an experiment and the results so far look terrible.

So firced to change guidence but manage to do so in a way that still lays responsibility at someone else's door?

They really have no shame do they

My understanding is that for precocious puberty blockers are used to delay puberty but are stopped to enable a child to go through puberty at a more appropriate time - i.e the same as their peers. But with dysphoria the desired outcome is suppression at the point of 'normal' puberty.

They are following the current guidelines and covering their backs. GIDS are the ones who are assuring everyone one that it is reversible.

@VirginiaComet

If puberty blockers are irreversible wouldn't we know that from their use to treat precocious puberty?

We do know.

(Don't know where the extra one came from in the previous post)

We also know it from their use to treat endometriosis. Which is limited to one 6-month period (and that is in women who do not have developing bodies)

“Believed” in the same sense that one might believe a male person can be a woman? That kind of belief?

But they know the internet is forever right? And archived...and changing it to be in line with current NHS advice doesn't mean much when previous advice was dished out with the claim they were reversible without that being backed up with any evidence of any kind.

None of that is erased with a "believed to be" dropped in.

belief and reality, not the same thing at all.

We do unfortunately know from treating precocious puberty.
www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

I was looking for this and what they now said.

I also noticed they've put the equality act on their site, under a "we don't necessarily endorse the following links but here's some further reading" section.

I also need to watch the video by a teacher on there...

Is GIDS actually still saying they're reversible? Someone needs to document all of this carefully. There are teenagers out there who are going to need evidence for their court cases in a few years when they realize what was done to them.

@scotsheather

This will be as big as the MMR/Wakefield scandal in a generation or less. Possibly bigger as the long term effects sound far greater reaching.

I believe it will be more like the thalidomide scandal, with the permanent changes to young bodies, leaving the NHS open to legal action.

@iguanadonna

Is GIDS actually still saying they're reversible? Someone needs to document all of this carefully. There are teenagers out there who are going to need evidence for their court cases in a few years when they realize what was done to them.

Yes Yes. GIDS are the ones who are saying they believe that PBs are still reversible. See my previous post re: NHS

Sorry, GIDS are advising that they are reversible.

The language around the use of cross-sex hormones, too, labelling their use HRT, to make it sound like the boon this has been to some women in their menopause and post-monopause. But if the hormones are cross-sex, they're not replacing something that was once there, it's introducing something new.

(I know we all have all the hormones, some in very limited amounts depending on our sex, but the level and balance are unprecedented with cross-sex treatment.)

[quote CallarMorvern]We do unfortunately know from treating precocious puberty.
www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/[/quote]
wow! 20,000 adverse event reports in 10 yrs - patients suffering from deadly seizures, crumbling bones in their 20s, teeth falling out - an inability to walk in some cases!! The health of the girl featured is absolutely ruined and she took it for precocious puberty, stopped at age 12 and progressed with puberty.

The studies that have been carried out are extremely limited and deeply flawed with one doctor describing it as 'a free for all'. This has got to be bigger than thalidomide, not least because the organisations involved should have learnt lessons that should have prevented anything like it happening again. Sadly, we are sleepwalking towards an even bigger nightmare.

So who is it who is responsible for saying that they are reversible?

Who advised the NHS? Was it Mermaids? And if so who advised them? GIDS? Where did they get their information?

The Newsnight documentary implied that the Tavistock was coming under pressure from trans lobby groups. Does that translate to misinformation about puberty blockers?

Where has the buck actually stopped?

The first time I heard of Lupron, before I was even aware it was used on gnc kids, was hearing about girls and women reporting dreadful side effects after taking it to deal with precocious puberty. These are women who took it for no more than a year, imagine the consequences for those taking it for their whole teenage life.

The awful impacts on bone density and mental health have been long documented, even if the manufacturers have tried to dispute it. What does this mean for NHS culpability and liability?

How the hell have we got to a place where serious drugs with crippling side effects and unknown future outcomes are given out to confused children as an alternative to therapy?

I mean, this board has been talking, for the best part of five years, about the known side effects of puberty blockers.

We've seen calls for class actions in the US, for years.

A mumsnetter has talked extensively about her life being ruined by puberty blockers.

How come we know all about it, but the NHS, GIDS and mermaids don't?

This is what happens when people with opinions are allowed to advise WPATH instead of sticking with evidence and research.

I will never understand why it has been acceptable for trans people to have less evidence supporting their treatment options than anyone else.

That's discrimination - doing real, measurable harm to people because you haven't bothered researching the facts.

The trans community are not an easy patient group, they are fully Dr Googled, usually self medicating and buoyed up by online support before they ever get to GID - patient groups like that are always going to be hard for medics to manage.

Has it been easier just to give them what they want and worry later if it isn't quite "first do no harm?"

Mermaids board is full of people with opinions and no training. Lived experience and patient experts are very important in healthcare - but they are not a substitute for peer reviewed research.