The Times on survey about trans women in female refuges

[Collidascope]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f9a5cf58-db52-11ea-9bd5-8c0b68caf23e?shareToken=7bc3afb0702bed423076e5a246b59620

@Greenandcabbagelooking

50% of the population is male. I bet many of them would feel fine about trans women in a women’s refuge, because the men won’t be affected by it.

I wonder how many women (adult human females) would say the same?

Good point. The survey should only be seeking the opinions of women.

Even seeking the opinions of random women is a bit off. Unless you've been in that situation or had experience as a refuge worker I'm not sure you can imagine how it might feel.

Due to this board I've spent more time thinking about it than the average person but I still have no idea what escaping abuse and having to live in a refuge is actually like.

It should be one of those decisions made by people on the ground and the women who access (or have accessed) the services. Unfortunately most of the orgs have been captured ideologically and the decisions are made by boards for political reasons and not what is in the women's best interests. In some cases it's straight up blackmail because the refuge will be refused central funding if they don't comply with prioritising males.

"People who are trans gender have gone through all or part of a process (including thoughts or actions) to change the sex they were described as at birth to the gender they identify with or intend to".

Misleading. If they're going to do surveys like this they need to be upfront about the % of males that DON'T have surgery instead of framing it like all do. Seeing as now they're saying you don't even need dysphoria to be trans, some won't even take hormones at all.

Or better yet, stop treating this like a fucking game and just allow vulnerable women their RIGHT to single sex spaces.

Why aren't journalists doing their job?

This survey has just been taken on face value. When will someone actually do some research into the research!?

@NonnyMouse1337

Yes, a lot of people still think the term 'trans woman' refers to some extremely tiny minority who have gone to great lengths to look very similar to women, have had genital surgery and so on. Some even think 'trans woman' is a woman (i.e. female) who is trans.

I don't know how these questions are asked in surveys. I suspect if they were straightforward without any sugar coating then the percentage would be much lower.

This is pretty much what I've noticed when chatting with people. That they've had the op and got rid of the male parts. Most people don't really think that much in depth about it.

@thehumanformerlyknownasfemale

"People who are trans gender have gone through all or part of a process (including thoughts or actions) to change the sex they were described as at birth to the gender they identify with or intend to".

Misleading. If they're going to do surveys like this they need to be upfront about the % of males that DON'T have surgery instead of framing it like all do. Seeing as now they're saying you don't even need dysphoria to be trans, some won't even take hormones at all.

Or better yet, stop treating this like a fucking game and just allow vulnerable women their RIGHT to single sex spaces.

It's not faithful to the EQA, which says:

“A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex”

Thoughts are not in the EQA. More misrepresentation of the law.

A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex”

How do you reassign a person's sex?

There is a lot of ‘gate-keeping’ around DV services. Not quite the right word but with services over subscribed and additional issues such as drink/drugs and whether the woman is really going to work with support so as to ensure others aren’t made more vulnerable by actions of someone which may make the whole issue purely theoretical. DV community services also have a pre-acceptance meeting and are pretty strong on agreed group rules ime. This seems a way that any ‘demands’ to be included would be seen as possibly the very reason to exclude but other side of the coin is that women would have to agree to possibility of a trans woman joining.
But all in all survey shows no understanding of how such services operate in practice

I've only read the second article. Having fairly recently come from a session of marking (quiver) I find it amazing that students who are so fucking precious about he/she pronouns and shit still assume authors are male - even if the article in question has a female name attached to it. If it is just an initial then it is never assumed that the author is female. Ditto neutral names like 'Pat' - it's always assumed it is Patrick and not Patricia.

“A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex”

Thoughts are not in the EQA. More misrepresentation of the law.

Doesn't 'proposing to undergo' mean 'thinking about it'?

How do you reassign a person's sex?

Good question, Datun. The people who wrote that into law obviously weren't scientists or doctors if they thought that people could change sex.

Also what are the 'other attributes of sex' which are not physiological?

@OldCrone

How do you reassign a person's sex?

Good question, Datun. The people who wrote that into law obviously weren't scientists or doctors if they thought that people could change sex.

Also what are the 'other attributes of sex' which are not physiological?

I assume it's dresses, make up, hair, etc.

@cheeseismydownfall

I'm still gobsmacked that 51 per cent of people are comfortable with trans women using a woman’s refuge. The only explanation I can think of is that people don't understand how broad the trans umbrella is and the principles of safeguarding.

I also question if the opinion of the general public is the most relevant voice here. Surely the opinions that matter are those of the women that use refuges, and the women who support them. I wonder what the outcome of that survey would be?

There's again an issue with how the question is asked. If you put the issue properly into context, you have to ask two questions.

Context:

Female victims of male violence need a female-only therapeutic environment to recover. For the last 50 years, such an environment has been provided in refuges and rape crisis centres.

Questions:

Do you agree that these services should also support males who identify as trans?

Do you agree that these services should include these males who identify as trans in the female-only therapeutic environment? This will exclude all female victims who cannot recover in a mixed-sex therapeutic environment from these services.
_
That's the questions I would ask. Given what I know about funding and service delivery, I would probably answer a reluctant yes or indecisive don't know to the first. That's because services are now increasingly required to cater to males without however receiving any extra funding to do so. Which is necessary precisely because you can't just slot males into the service you provide without creating a new service for them, alongside your existing female-only therapeutic environment.

And an unshakeable no to the second.

Just listen to experts. Not the media or bigotry.

survivorsnetwork.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Letter-to-Prime-Minister-regarding-GRA-Consultation-July-2020.pdf

nottinghamwomenscentre.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Letter-to-the-PM-GRA.pdf

[quote Gottalife]Just listen to experts. Not the media or bigotry.

survivorsnetwork.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Letter-to-Prime-Minister-regarding-GRA-Consultation-July-2020.pdf

nottinghamwomenscentre.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Letter-to-the-PM-GRA.pdf[/quote]
From your first link.
As highlighted by the organisation Mermaids, “trans people have been using toilets,trying on clothes in changing rooms, accessing domestic violence facilities, and generally getting on with their lives for as long as single-sex spaces have existed and there is absolutely no evidence we’re aware of, from the police, local authorities, shops, refuges or anywhere else besides, that predators have used the provisions of the Equality Act 2010 to gain access to women’s spaces. None.”

Just becaus Mermaids have their head in the sand and are therefore not aware of the many instances in which there have been problems doesn't indicate that this has never happened.

Have a look at this thread for multiple instances of predators entering women's spaces to commit offences.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Just becaus Mermaids have their head in the sand and are therefore not aware of the many instances in which there have been problems doesn't indicate that this has never happened.

They're perfectly aware. They just lie.

They're perfectly aware. They just lie.

I know.

The statistics which are probably impossible to collect but the only ones which really matter are:
1)are women who need refuges 'comfortable' with TW being allowed to use them
2) how many women who need refuges are not using them because of the potential of males being in them?

I agree.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/FPFWreportt_19SEPT2018.pdf

Just listen to experts. Not the media or bigotry.

No, let's listen to the women who need to use them, not people with a Stonewall-driven agenda. And what the fuck it has to do with Mermaids, a trans lobby group focussed on children, I'm not sure.

Here's a letter from female survivors. Nice that so many people talk over them.

fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Survivors-letter.pdf

Why would anyone want to engage in listening to someone who

!!
Someone who uses the word bigotry to describe what you are going to say?

Blimey, that picture of Liz Truss - she could be India Willoughby's sister!

I wonder whether the result would be the same if the question asked were "should people with penises have access to women's refuges"

When I have spoken to people about trans issues I have found that often people don't realise that a trans women = male identifying as a women and think that a transman = male identifying as a women. The old term of transexual seems not to have the same confusion. People with penises seems to be clearer.

@Portnlemon

!! Someone who uses the word bigotry to describe what you are going to say?

Gottalife

Just listen to experts. Not the media or bigotry.

I wonder how you would describe nailing a dead rat to the door of a rape refuge because they want to remain single sex?

Or removing their funding, for the same reason?

How would you describe the mumsnetter whose PTSD prevents her from accessing shelters/refuges which allow males?

Therefore, she is homeless, travelling across the country in a vain effort to find sanctuary. Because, where she comes from, there isn't a single shelter that is female only.

Is she expert enough or just another bigot?