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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'Polarised' debate on gender recognition is harming UK, says equalities chief

134 replies

MondayYogurt · 08/08/2020 20:45

Observer article www.theguardian.com/society/2020/aug/08/polarised-debate-on-gender-recognition-is-harming-uk-says-equalities-chief

The departing chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission has said the polarising debate around transgender rights will be damaging to the country if it continues.
In his final interview, David Isaac, who left his position on Saturday after more than four years in post, urged supporters and opponents of gender self-identification to recognise that they had much in common.

OP posts:
Gottalife · 09/08/2020 20:26

@Kit19

Gender is a social construct made up of performative stereotypes. I’ve had my hair to my waist & worn high heels, and equally it’s been an inch long and I’ve worn a suit. Still a woman.

It is literally impossible for any man to know how it feels to be a woman. They can only imagine what it feels like same as I can only imagine what it feels like to be a man. I can’t ever know because I’m not a man

Well it is impossible to know how it feels to be ANY other person, man or woman, you only know how it feels to be yourself. And the gender you feel yourself to be.
Gurufloof · 09/08/2020 20:34

Think of all the people you meet, work or socialise with. It could be your doctor or dentist or optician or the supermarket checkout worker. Any
one of them could have a trans history but they are not going to tell you or anyone. That is their private business. That is stealth

What do you mean by a trans history?

You trying to say my dental hygienist might not be the sex I assume? Cos I'm damn sure what sex i see is true. And like most in the UK i see different drs each time I go, but I can tell which sex they are without much trouble.

Or by trans history you mean they Identify as maybe bi or lesbian? In which case that's none of my business as is my sexual history no ones business.

midgebabe · 09/08/2020 20:43

Well I guess anyone meeting me would have no idea that I identified as a boy for many years
I doubt they noticed at the time either.

Isn't that exactly the point? It's an internal thing that has no objective measurable effect

OldCrone · 09/08/2020 20:57

Well it is impossible to know how it feels to be ANY other person, man or woman, you only know how it feels to be yourself. And the gender you feel yourself to be.

What does it feel like to feel yourself to be a gender?

Gottalife · 09/08/2020 21:12

Sexuallity has nothing to do with transgenderism. I never mentioned your dental hygienist. Notice I said COULD BE with a few hypothetical examples.

MForstater · 09/08/2020 21:19

David Isaac was chair of Stonewall before the 2015 inclusion of T.

It seems like he is mildly gender critical but was unwilling or unable to be effective in that in any kind of perceptible way.

Ditto Sam Smethers at Fawcett, Sophie Walker at WEP. Presumably every senior leader of every organisation that isn't actively shouting "TWAW" . Its not that these individuals are particularly cowardly, but it is impossible for some combination of reasons (funding ? fear of own young staff? long term careerism? govt/GEO pressure?) for people to get to the top of these organisations and be openly and effectively gender critical.

DialSquare · 09/08/2020 21:22

Gottalife seems to have GC views to me.

"Sexuality is nothing to do with transgenderism." I agree.

"Well it is impossible to know how it feels to be ANY other person, man or woman, you only know how it feels to be yourself. Exactly. So how does a male who feels like himself become a woman?

TehBewilderness · 09/08/2020 21:25

@MForstater

David Isaac was chair of Stonewall before the 2015 inclusion of T.

It seems like he is mildly gender critical but was unwilling or unable to be effective in that in any kind of perceptible way.

Ditto Sam Smethers at Fawcett, Sophie Walker at WEP. Presumably every senior leader of every organisation that isn't actively shouting "TWAW" . Its not that these individuals are particularly cowardly, but it is impossible for some combination of reasons (funding ? fear of own young staff? long term careerism? govt/GEO pressure?) for people to get to the top of these organisations and be openly and effectively gender critical.

It is almost always 90% about the money when organizations fail in this fashion.
Portnlemon · 09/08/2020 21:32

I don't think that's strictly true Maya. We seem to have gone through a slow process of immersion in Stonewall policy (for short hand purposes) which has now reached a saturation point. And those that were early critics in senior positions became casualties of the a vicious policing at it's peak, with the more circumspect surviving. People are learning more about this now and more balanced people are emerging, it's such an outlandish and anti reality approach to life that it will recede and more constructive people will take the lead but it's cyclical as all trends are and it's likely to take 5 years to recede fully. I don't think the position is fixed.

Gurufloof · 09/08/2020 21:33

Fine so what do you mean by trans history then?

Portnlemon · 09/08/2020 21:38

'Polarised' debate on gender recognition is harming UK, says equalities chief

At the risk of being the thread police the discussion is about the equalities chief and where he has left us. I noticed on Twitter he's getting a kicking from trans campaigners too which is interesting.

Kit19 · 09/08/2020 21:50

The EHRC were in a position to influence how discussions around self ID were conducted, they chose not too. They chose to say nothing as stonewall exerted every bit of their considerable political influence to push self ID through under the radar and then when they failed, to shout #nodebate and tacitly condone the abuse, doxxing & harassment of people who disagreed.

David Issac being a prior chair of stonewall was in the best position to have frank discussions with them about how the discussions were being conducted. He did not. He did nothing so I’m not interested in his views now he’s no longer in a position to do anything

Stripesgalore · 09/08/2020 22:00

Is a poster about to explain how they know what their gender identity is?

I remain forever hopeful but every time the person proposing we all have one fails to describe what it actually is.

BovaryX · 09/08/2020 22:03

People are learning more about this now and more balanced people are emerging, it's such an outlandish and anti reality approach to life that it will recede and more

Perhaps. Or perhaps that is an overly optimistic view of what is happening. The environment in which Harry Miller was told to check his thinking for a limerick and was found guilty of a non crime crime wasn't created overnight. The fact that an influential, heavy weight feminist from the last half of the 20th century like Germaine Greer is effectively no platformed on 21st century campuses? That didn't happen overnight. The fact that substantial chunks of the left wing media simply deign to report problematic news? That didn't happen overnight. It is the result of decades of blinkered, ideological tunnel vision. The failure of any political party to mount a robust defence of freedom of speech? When it has been under sustained attack for years? That principle should be woven into the DNA of the Conservative party. Instead, they spent thirty years apologising for their existence. That didn't happen overnight. The students who are being processed through an educational system where freedom of speech and debate is under existential threat? What will this paradigm produce? In the final episode of Chernobyl, Valery Legasov says this:

Every lie that is told incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt will be paid

You know what's really shocking? In the first two decades of the 21st century West, one wonders when or if that still holds true.

merrymouse · 09/08/2020 22:43

Think of all the people you meet, work or socialise with. It could be your doctor or dentist or optician or the supermarket checkout worker. Any one of them could have a trans history but they are not going to tell you or anyone. That is their private business. That is stealth.

It’s not clear why stealth is relevant here. They may also have rights to services and protections because of disability or religion or age, and that wouldn’t be obvious or my business either.

However your suggestion that trans people regularly lie about their sex in situations where it is relevant (e.g. as crone says if somebody had specifically requested a same sex HCP), isn’t very supportive of trans people. One might call it transphobic.

That

truthisarevolutionaryact · 09/08/2020 22:58

I'm still reeling from seeing David Isaac claim on twitter that he's supported single sex spaces all along Shock
The ex head of Stonewall and the toxic EHRC with all their anti women and girl publications? Surely he's trolling women?

JamieLeeCurtains · 09/08/2020 23:14

Well it is impossible to know how it feels to be ANY other person, man or woman, you only know how it feels to be yourself. And the gender you feel yourself to be

So there are 7.8 billion genders in the world?

JamieLeeCurtains · 09/08/2020 23:16

Oh and 'stealth' trans is massively pejorative to trans women - give it a go on Twitter.

ContentiousOne · 09/08/2020 23:32

A trans history should not preclude ethical or altruistic behaviour.

Some transwomen can and do understand that women's resources are not theirs for the taking. Stealth or not, that opportunity to do better exists for all males, regardless of gender identity.

Aesopfable · 09/08/2020 23:47

I assume ‘trans history’ mean someone who identified as trans historically but has now detransitioned.

ContentiousOne · 09/08/2020 23:51

No. It means a person who lives as if they were the opposite sex, their trans(ition) undertaken in the past.

Fallingirl · 09/08/2020 23:54

He has got a nerve claiming the nordic countries as an example to be followed.

For example, in Denmark self-id was brought in without anyone knowing about it at the time. They have had to deal with issues brought up by it as they go along.

One case decided that swimming pool changing rooms are single sex, and legally female males may be excluded.
They have been discussing what to do with prisons, as the case from Sweden brought it up as an issue, but I don’t think there has been a Danish case yet, so no decision has been made.
One horrifying problem has only come to light among radical feminist groups; it doesn’t even merit wider political or media attention. It was only discovered by a woman, reading someone’s master dissertation on inclusion of trans women in women’s shelters. These shelters are used by women in street prostitution, with nowhere else to go when they are not working, and are allocated by the local council and are gender segregated. This dissertation discussed how it was hurtful for a transwoman to be misgendered when a woman would come in, unable to cope with the smell of a man, after having had her body used by men all night. Not one word about how the women were affected. This issue has never been raised in any media, let alone discussed politically.
Issues such as these are only coming to light, when gender critical women can dig them up. The same is true for domestic violence refuges.

This is what happens when you have no debate, or a “non-toxic” (lack of) debate. Gender critical women in Denmark are very much looking to the UK, and taking inspiration from here, but there is so much harm to undo.

TehBewilderness · 10/08/2020 00:07

In the UK there is no provision for detransitioning. The person is required to assert that they intend to live the rest of their life as the new ID, so they can't very well have a "trans history", can they?

Aesopfable · 10/08/2020 00:07

@ContentiousOne

No. It means a person who lives as if they were the opposite sex, their trans(ition) undertaken in the past.
But it is not ‘history’ - they will always remain the sex they were when conceived so must ‘transition’ every day. I don’t get what is meant by having a secret trans past; every transwomen is a male and this can be told be their gait, their smell, their posture, their face shape, Adam’s apple, mannerism, attitude, etc. It isn’t secret to anyone who has eyes to see. (Filtered, posed, airbrushed shots don’t count)
merrymouse · 10/08/2020 09:13

My main concern is that he seems to have totally misunderstood the 'debate'.

Default unisex toilets are just one consequence of the complete loss of any meaningful legislative definition of sex.

The bigger issue is that self ID relegates three of the protected characteristics in the EA - sex, gender reassignment and sexual orientation, to a subjective feeling in somebody's head.

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