Trans adults more likely to be autistic, Times article

[Igneococcus]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d1661bf8-d8e9-11ea-8f95-6d813022b2d7?shareToken=97ad8c8db000611477b2450e544f28b2

According to this article both sex and gender can get "assigend" at birth.

The very long comment by Gary Powell is particularly good.
Yes, very impressed. Excellent logic. It's the most recommended, I'm glad to say.

@Wandawomble

Jo March’s comment underneath it is good. My daughter is autistic so this is a subject that is very important to me.

(Copying and pasting)

I have experience of younger - teen - transidentifying girls. All of them have autistic traits or some other psychological problem, such as anxiety. If I had had to pick out who'd go on from Primary (where I knew them) on to Secondary and 'come-out' as nonbinary or trans, I would have picked those girls. For the reason you said.
The biggest group of referrals to the Tavistock GIDs are teenage girls, and a huge 400% increase in referrals over the last few years. There was meant to be an Enquiry, called by Penny Mordaunt- on this. Never happened.
My biggest concern is what young children are being taught at Primary School age. That "gender identity" exists (what I'd call stereotypical ideas of what girls and boys are like) and is more important than biological sex. That it's possible to 'change sex' if you don't fit in by changing your name, what you wear, breast binding and puberty blockers.
The theory about autistic girls and trans-identity, is that autism in girls tends to be under-diagnosed because girls present differently and adapt better socially (eg by mimincing socially-skilled interactions) than boys. For a long time, autism was known as a 'male' disorder (Simon-Baron-Cohen held that male and female brains are different - not true - , and that autism is an extreme male brain.) Puberty presents a real challenge to kids who find change, and physical discomfort (periods) very difficult. If there is an accepting community out there that will explain you to yourself (you're actually a boy) then you might just go for it.
A generation of children (autistic and non-autistic) is being failed and turning online for mental health support, where they find trans-activists.

The part about what children are being taught in school is key. Teachers are told what to teach, often given ‘scripts’ and if they question thus could end up losing their job for not promoting this gender ideology bollocks.

The link between autism and being transgender isn't fully understood or well studied. But we know autistic people are also more likely to identify as gay or bisexual, so it's very interesting.

There's some bio theories (brain development in autism and the role of neurotransmitters and hormones) which state a mix of genetics and hormones are the cause, and some psychological theories about autistic people being more likely to question societal expectations so more likely to experiment with gender and sexuality.

So for my 12 year old daughter, she's seen what the loudest bully boys are like in her class (two of them were watching porn from age 10 if not younger) and so when she got her puberty at 10 (it would be interested to see the correlation between girls getting their period younger and wishes to be trans) she was very scared of development that would make her look more like a woman and therefore prey to these boys.
She's also very aware of what girls are "supposed to be like" because having Autism makes her feel different to what she perceives as normal girls. She is also lesbian. In her friend group of 5, 4 all of the girls identify as non binary. One says she is bisexual, another pansexual. My daughter seems to be the only girl who knows she is a female and says as such.
Chillingly I can see how easily it would be for a parent, friend or unscrupulous group to get her into the trans trend. It's already happened to a friend who is now going the Tavistock route.
I would be expecting more court cases.
I've listened to Irreversible Damage with my daughter, I would suggest anyone else who had child who could be susceptible to this to do the same.

One of my sons is on the spectrum (he's diagnosed). He's 16 and so far has shown no interest in gender identity politics to my knowledge. I can see where it would spring from though.

He has in the past displayed quite rigid views about gender roles which in my opinion stems from a desire to categorise everything, which I think is one way he tries to make sense of the world. It's not really that different to what we all do to some extent he's just a bit more black and white about it than the average person without an ASC.

For example a couple of years ago his younger brother had his ear pierced and chose one of those fashionable diamanté style earrings. He couldn't stop going on at him and us that this was a 'girls earring' and his brother shouldn't have picked it because he is a boy. He was quite fixated on it for a while.

I had to spend a lot of time reiterating that it didn't matter, that 'things' don't actually belong to boys or girls and all the other debunking of stereotypes. He eventually let it drop but he does have a tendency to get a bit of a fixation about these sort of things. I can completely see how he would be susceptible to the sorts of explanations groups like Mermaids churn out.

I was interested to read this, as my brother is trans (born female), and a few years ago I was thinking about it, and realised he most probably is autistic but has never been diagnosed. Suffered and treated for a lot of mental health issues throughout his life, but a lot of his behaviours whilst growing up and continuing now would suggest autism was an underlying issue.

Is your sibling happier now in the opposite sex role?

Telegraph had this article in yesterday's paper too. Not their usual style of rhetoric either. I also wondered why they are presenting it this way round. I have ASD and have never considered that I am 'really a man'.

@SerenityNowwwww I'd like to say generally in himself he is happier as male, but still very much under the mental health services and frequent issues with self harm unfortunately

That must be tough - I have a sibling with issues and it’s so hard to see them going through periods of hell.

I live 200 miles away and I'm due a baby next month so it's even harder not being able to go round. I had to call the police for a welfare check last month 😔

Oh no that’s terrible. Do you keep in contact though - or do they ‘do a hermit’ like mine?

(Congrats on the baby - hope the heat isn’t zapping you out too much).

@snoodle1

I work in a support role at a university and many of the students I support have been diagnosed with ASC. Me and my colleagues have remarked to one another over the years how it is strange that an unusually high proportion of these are either transgender or thinking seriously about transitioning. These students come to us with a diagnosis of ASC from a psychiatrist and of course if they talk about transitioning we would encourage them to talk to someone with the appropriate training/qualification as it would be out of our remit to do otherwise. So this is really just an observation I am talking about and I thought it might be interesting to share.

I have noticed the same, in my limited experience

• that many autistic children may not be trans at all, but latch onto the gender ideology stereotypes to try and rationalise their feelings of otherness.

agree with @Babdoc

Or try to understand these rules literally. So girls like pink and dollies and hate getting dirty - well that’s not me then...therefore.... It’s a type of logic there then isn’t it?

I think part of the problem with this article, and similar ones, is the assumption that "being trans" is a thing, like "being autistic" is a thing. So the idea that being autistic might make people interpret some of their experiences in such a way as to say they are trans doesn't seem obvious as an interpretation.

It would be more straightforward to say, autistic kids are more likely to suffer certain types of body dysphoria, or to be upset with the changes of puberty, or to be confused and anxious about social roles".

@CrowdedHouseinQuarantine

- that many autistic children may not be trans at all, but latch onto the gender ideology stereotypes to try and rationalise their feelings of otherness.

agree with @Babdoc

Agree

@Gwynfluff

Was also going to mention that Simon Baron Cohen thinks autism is to have a male brain. If you are female and have autism, you definitely have a female brain. Was reading some stuff by Tania Marshall who has noted that many young people with ASC can question gender and that they need really careful support.

Yeah, I don't trust Baron-Cohen in the slightest - his model of autism is the reason so many women and girls have flown under the radar or been misdiagnosed.

Some of the questions on the ASQ are absolutely fucking ridiculous.

@SerenityNowwwww he deffo does a hermit a lot of the time, but we do have the odd good chat from time to time when he feels like it!

Ah ‘the hermit’ as we call him or ‘Grrrrrrrrr’. You can only provide an open ear - advice rarely taken or appreciated in the spirit of which it was given. As long as he knows you are there for him - Is he excited about the baby though?

@Goosefoot

I think part of the problem with this article, and similar ones, is the assumption that "being trans" is a thing, like "being autistic" is a thing. So the idea that being autistic might make people interpret some of their experiences in such a way as to say they are trans doesn't seem obvious as an interpretation.

It would be more straightforward to say, autistic kids are more likely to suffer certain types of body dysphoria, or to be upset with the changes of puberty, or to be confused and anxious about social roles".

The problem with people saying there is a correlation between people who are trans and people who are autistic is this assumption that 'being trans' is just something that people 'are'.

In order to believe that people can be 'genuinely transgender', you first have to believe that a brain can be born into a wrongly sexed body.

If you don't believe that brains can be born into a wrongly sexed body, the only rational explanation for those who believe themselves to be 'genuinely transgender' is that they have some sort of psychological condition: either they believe that their brains have been born in a wrongly sexed body, or they are suffering from body dysphoria. Both of these indicate psychological conditions which should be treated accordingly.

A belief that 'some people are trans' requires either a belief in the 'wrong body' scenario, or an acceptance that people who are 'really trans' have a psychological condition.

Yup. And even if people are thinking of it as a psychological condition, they often are thinking of it as a discrete thing, like an aneurysm, or a broken arm.

This is a problem I think in a lot of discussions about psychological or any sort of condition or illness in the brain - in many cases, it snot clear to scientists what the causes are, what is part of "it" and what is a symptom, or a correlation. There are questions about defining the boundaries of these things pretty regularly, even ones we tend to think of as very established. Sometimes the way they are seen manifesting in other cultures can be very different too.

People typically get upset when someone suggests that any of these diagnoses are "not real" although that's not usually the real implication. But that is how people interpret it.

It makes it difficult to discuss what might be a cause or a different perspective about sets of symptoms, etc.

@Babdoc

I was v disappointed by the article too - not at all up to the Times usual standard of journalism. Use of the wretched “cis” word, nonsense about “assigned at birth”, and completely missing the elephant in the room - that many autistic children may not be trans at all, but latch onto the gender ideology stereotypes to try and rationalise their feelings of otherness. How many autistics will end up sterilised and with damaged health, from totally inappropriate puberty blockers, hormones and surgery? As a doctor, I am appalled that clinics such as the Tavistock would even consider “affirming” these children’s self diagnosis without a thought that it could be totally wrong. I hope some high profile court cases and multi million pound damages claims may halt this juggernaut before more children are harmed. And as an autistic myself, with an autistic daughter, I am grateful we both hit puberty well before all this fad. Our “male” interests in SF, computer gaming, science, trains and maths, and our loathing of fashion, make up and pink sparkles were simply accepted as part of our personalities. Nowadays, I shudder to think what pathway we might have been directed to.

That's me, Babdoc's autistic daughter :D I'm not a mum myself but I care about other autistic kids in that sense, having been one. I've started a Facebook group called Gender Critical Autistics, where autistic people (and families and allies) can talk about this stuff. Simon Baron-Cohen's been a bit of a disappointment on the issue with his whole "male brains" ideas, but others are good: Tony Attwood's spoken out against transing autistic children, warning that it's not a "cure" for autistic traits (and many of us don't want to be cured anyway, once we learn techniques to manage the downsides of our autism we can get a lot of good out of it, there was a big autism pride movement in the late 2000s and it's a shame to see the community getting misdiagnosed and inappropriately medicalised), and Sue and Marcus Evans have done similar and left the Tavistock. At the moment I'm planning to look through and write to autism organisations about their stance on the issue: some local services have been really good about advising caution with gender obsession and pointing out that a lot of autistic traits present as gender nonconformity and shouldn't be taken as evidence of a kid's body being wrong, but others like the National Autistic Society seem to have taken the shilling, they ask about gender identity in their surveys (even for autistic people, we don't like language that isn't clearly defined) and had some webinar event that was pretty pro-TRA. I'm hoping the tide's starting to turn, but it would be useful for us to keep an eye on how this is affecting autistics, and other vulnerable groups like adopted children and LGB young people and pre-LGB kids, kids who've survived CSA, and people with comorbid body dysmorphia and EDs, all of whom seem to be disproportionately hit.

Here is our group. The focus is on autistics but all are welcome, we're only 1.6% of the population (though 35-50% of gender clinic referrals!) so we're very happy to have non-autistic friends too. www.facebook.com/groups/319309189461011/?ref=share