Bernadine Evaristo on R4 - put gender n the blender

[partystress]

Did anyone else hear this? I tried really hard to understand her argument, and agreed with much of what she said, but was completely confused by how she got to her conclusions, given the points she made, along the way, eg about blue and pink being 20th century marketing.

On a couple of occasions she talked about post-surgery, but there was an ambiguity around self-id and I was unclear whether she thinks all TWAW. I would love to hear where her thinking takes her on women’s sports.

Would be interested to hear others’ Thoughts on it.

What programme?

What programme/time OP? I’d be interested to have a listen. I heard her interviewed I think on open book a while ago and she seemed a really decent, intelligent woman, although clearly believes in inherent gender identity as she was talking about featuring “non binary” people, so it would be really interesting to hear her reasoned take on the subject. It always feels like genderists are so near yet so far when they try to argue against stereotypes whilst still supporting the concept of inherent gender identity though.

Here's what I posted on the other Evaristo threads:

More Genderwang! from Evaristo on A Point of View on Radio 4:

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000lh74

It starts well with her stating that gender and sex are distinct but then she gets drawn into the same dead ends that appeal to many:

There are 3 "biological sexes": male, female, and intersex.
NATALT, so we must ignore the Yanivs that the nasty press fixate upon.
The nasty press are presenting this in the same way as "all gays are paedos" and "all blacks are muggers".
We must have a lovely chat rather than have a row. (Paraphrase: women standing up for their rights just isn't kind.)

But then she throws in the grenade of "gender isn't intrinsic". It's very easy to get cancelled with loose talk like that.

My overall impression is that she thinks very very highly of her own intelligence and wisdom. It might be better for her to rely less on her effortless mastery of the subject and actually get to understand more of what she's pointificating on.

She ended up in the usual bog. Once she'd said she taught in a university, I held my breath, listening for anything that would bring the mob down on her. She has to be woke, despite her second wave credentials, or she'd be drummed out.

I don't know how she manages the cognitive dissonance. When she praised her trans friend for being so graciously patient with her over mis-pronouning, I knew she was a lost cause.

So sad. But perhaps she will find her way after retirement when compelled speech stops being her daily fare. I'm sure if anyone had told us back in the 70s where we would be in 2020, we would have scoffed in sheer disbelief.

This was "A Point of View" right after "Any Questions", Friday at 20.45. You'll easily find it by going on the BBC Sounds app, clicking on schedules, then 4, then Friday, and scrolling down to the time.

I don't know who this woman is, but she can go to hell for saying that intersex is a third sex

Of course it isn't, Sunset. If we had three sexes, every baby would need three parents - and there's be a lot fewer of them!

Intersex conditions are anomalous and distressing, and certainly nothing to do with lifestyle choice or gender expression. The way TRAs have hijacked intersex people's experience to further their cause is repellent and insensitive.

Nauticant - thank you for a good summary of the points that really stood out for me as unresearched. It doesn’t take much to uncover the objective facts behind offending stats or intersex conditions. And completely ignoring the impact of self-id seems bizarre at this point in time.

Nearlygranny nails my biggest issue - the cognitive dissonance. Her use of language is so wonderful that I can’t work out how it sits on such slippery thinking. Although, perhaps that is what enabled her to write about such disparate characters equally convincingly?

Whatever, I do hope the BBC will give the same platform to a GC voice very soon.

I think that being a good writer and a great storyteller doesn't automatically mean you're a deep thinker.
And vice versa.

"There might be a degree of biological conformity between females at birth but that's where it stops...."

Gosh, how gracious of her to acknowledge biology at all really

Seems very taken with her own cleverness.

I love clever women and don’t have a problem with them enjoying their own articulacy and intelligence. I would just like more responsibility around facts and more attention to the internal logic of arguments and the consequences for others if, as a person of influence, you are taken at face value.

This is being repeated on Radio 4 in 10 minutes.

I tuned in a bit of the way in by accident at first I was h oping she was doing an appeal on behalf of LGB Alliance but sadly not! She appeared to be saying interesting things about gender not being innate then she championed womxm and I think the abolition of sex? and I thought well thats £20 saved NOT going to buy her book. Her other argeument is that women have much more dividing them class race but apparently we can be happily connected to a bloke who claims to be a women.... I've not had enough coffee so I may be maligning her badly

@Floisme

I think that being a good writer and a great storyteller doesn't automatically mean you're a deep thinker. And vice versa.

Slight tangent, but I am reading this right now. It's very interesting:

davidrobson.me/the-intelligence-trap/

There might be a degree of biological conformity between females at birth but that's where it stops

Where what stops ?

The degree of biological conformity ? Agree that we just all have women’s bodies and men have men’s bodies but there are variations within each group.

The degree of conformity of personality ? Agree. That’s what feminism is all about. Having a female body does not mean you are constrained to a certain personality. Ditto men.

The relevance of sex? Stops at birth? No. Clearly not. Having a female body will impact you all your life.

Her thoughts are not very coherent. I think storytellers are necessarily good at manipulating words to creative a narrative. But the narrative doesn’t necessarily have any grounding in reality. You can make your characters do anything and here she’s making her words do her bidding. But you can’t make physical concepts in the world do anything you like. Using words to obfuscate doesn’t change the real world. We need Jane Clare Jones.

All Hail Jane Clare Jones!

Just listened to it. It's incoherent and illogical.

Thank you Scrimpshaw I hadn't come across that - yes it looks interesting.

I'm a fiction writer and I find it incredibly difficult to put forward coherent arguments in a way that not only makes sense, but people can follow and nod along! I always know what I feel and think about a subject, but I'd never be a good debater or lawyer. I prefer (and am better at) storytelling!

I'm sure it works the other way too. I remember Hadley Freeman - who I think is a really good writer - talking about how she spent 20-odd years trying to write A Novel before concluding she just wasn't very good at fiction.

I’m the opposite lamahaha. I have a degree in philosophy and I can do concepts and argument. I cannot do storytelling. At all. I do not have an imagination in me although I love fiction and I can write - just not stories.

The philosopher in me is what revolts at this ideology. It’s not even so much the risk to women and children - although that upsets me. It’s the willingness to deal in untruths. You say you are a woman - you are not. I can’t get beyond that.

At the risk of a further tangent, Floisme, the 'Intelligence Trap' contains a fascinating account of the relationship between Harry Houdini and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle - the former an 'uneducated' showman and the latter a supposed doctor of science. But Conan Doyle was an avid believer in spiritualism (and a fantastic writer, too, of course):

www.theguardian.com/stage/2015/aug/10/houdini-and-conan-doyle-impossible-edinburgh-festival

I've not had enough coffee so I may be maligning her badly

Having also happened to catch this incoherent nonsense as I was making tea this morning, please don't worry, fatblackcatspaw. You're definitely not.

Thank you, I can see I'm going to have to read it Was there a book about Conan Doyle and Houdini? A novel of course!

Sorry cross post - that was to Scrimshaw