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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Identifying that men are more violent than women is sexist

31 replies

FFSFFSFFS · 07/08/2020 10:44

I thiiiiink that is the point of this. I mean. WTAF.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/39J8QqqNbpGxcjGLC9QprNZ/women-who-kill

OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 07/08/2020 10:50

That is a really bizarre article. I was going to C&P some examples, but the whole thing is just bizarre.

FFSFFSFFS · 07/08/2020 10:54

It's just soooooo odd isn't it - I think its a real insight into how women and feminism are under so much attack and logic is desperately being twisted to make it seem that anti-women positions are feminist and pro-women.

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Collidascope · 07/08/2020 11:02

"On this week’s episode ofBad People, myself and my podcast co-host Sofie Hagen..."

I know this isn't the point, but this drives me mad. Why do people insist on saying myself when they mean I or me?

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 07/08/2020 11:08

Sofie Hagan announced that she's NB in a long and rambling post last year.

Nothing she has ever been involved with makes that much sense to me. So, this is no surprise.

www.sofiehagen.com/newsletters/2020/2/26/also-im-not-a-woman-2019

EyesOpening · 07/08/2020 11:59

I didn't really see anything in the article to make me think the assumptions at the start were wrong, if that's what she was trying to do. Indeed after the initial bit she says
"So far, everything fits with the assumption that women who kill are probably desperate, that some are women facing abuse who are finally fighting back. This is even more the case when we consider that research has found that compared to men, women more frequently kill intimate partners in situations where the homicide victim initiated the physical aggression."
Although she then talks about female serial killers and says "In a US study of 64 female serial killers" but this doesn't tell us what percentage this represents of female killers nor against male ones, other than "Serial killers are themselves quite rare" and then says" but these examples remind us of the need to challenge our assumptions about why, when, and whom women kill." - not really if that's .0000000001%

EyesOpening · 07/08/2020 12:04

@Collidascope

"On this week’s episode ofBad People, myself and my podcast co-host Sofie Hagen..."

I know this isn't the point, but this drives me mad. Why do people insist on saying myself when they mean I or me?

Drives me mad too! I think people think using "I" or "myself" is the "posh" way of saying "me" (although "myself" can be used for emphasis as well as when the object of the sentence is the same as the subject)
Cabinfever10 · 07/08/2020 12:11

I read somewhere years ago that the FBI believe that at anyone time there are between 100 and 150 active serial killers in the US at any time

EyesOpening · 07/08/2020 12:18

@Cabinfever10

I read somewhere years ago that the FBI believe that at anyone time there are between 100 and 150 active serial killers in the US at any time
but would that include ones in prison (as they're now not active)? Looking at the linked study, those 64 are from a time range over 187 years! "victim characteristics of 64 FSKs who committed their crimes in the US from 1821 to 2008."
Cabinfever10 · 07/08/2020 12:23

@EyesOpening that figure doesn't include those in jail or like the zodiac killer who have gone "dormant "

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 07/08/2020 12:24

What even is the point of the article, really? As you say, EyesOpening, she's just confirming the initial 'assumption' by looking at the evidence.

Collidascope · 07/08/2020 12:33

Drives me mad too! I think people think using "I" or "myself" is the "posh" way of saying "me"

Yeah, I think this is why it annoys me. It's both affected and wrong. Whereas someone saying, "Me and Sofie did..." is grammatically wrong but isn't pretentious, so doesn't bother me.

NiceGerbil · 07/08/2020 12:39

'There is also the tendency to split data into men and women. This is not because all researchers endorse a strict gender binary, but because these represent the two largest and easiest to measure groups.'

?????!!!!!!

Imnobody4 · 07/08/2020 12:40

Don't have much time for Dr. Julia Shaw, she seems rather a light weight in the mould of Naomi Wolf.
She's founder of the Bi-sexual Research Group. We are a group of researchers, educators, and activists working to better understand the bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, plurisexual, queer, fluid, and unlabeled experience.

newrubylane · 07/08/2020 12:41

@Collidascope the myself thing drives me mad too. People think it makes them sound clever. It does not.

newrubylane · 07/08/2020 12:45

@Imnobody4 - that's an awful lot of labelling before they get to unlabelled. I feel like it might have been quicker to list the 'experiences' they are not working to understand.

Soontobe60 · 07/08/2020 12:49

@Imnobody4

Don't have much time for Dr. Julia Shaw, she seems rather a light weight in the mould of Naomi Wolf. She's founder of the Bi-sexual Research Group. We are a group of researchers, educators, and activists working to better understand the bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, plurisexual, queer, fluid, and unlabeled experience.
That’s a very wide group of people; surely their ‘experiences’ differ? Also, she’s confusing sex with gender. Poor girl.
BlingLoving · 07/08/2020 13:03

But her own data seems to show that she's talking rubbish? I mean, of COURSE not all women who commit violent are intrinsically violent (or bad people) just like not all men who do are. But the point is that overall, women are less inclined to kill. And when they do, they are more likely to do so as a result of outside factors. Doesn't mean you don't get outliers. I mean, the whole point of generating data is to understand what is most likely/common and to understand how and why outliers exist.

This line sums it up: "This is even more the case when we consider that research has found that compared to men, women more frequently kill intimate partners in situations where the homicide victim initiated the physical aggression."

That's not to say that ALL WOMEN who kill are like this, but that it's more frequent?

Surely the point of justice systems is to understand what is really happening and to take that into account?

Argh, this kind of thing drives me mad. Because the next thing you know, all those wankers out there who are bleating abut hw life is hard for men and that domestic violence should equally centre men because "men also experience DV" will use it to back up their claims. Sigh.

andyoldlabour · 07/08/2020 13:40

Strange article, talks about Canada's most notorious serial killer, Karla Homolka. Well, let's look at the facts. Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka, raped (which wouldn't have been Karla) and killed three minors. Not really up to the Peter Sutcliffe model is it? Thirteen women murdered and seven attempted murders. Or Harold Shipman, probably 250 victims.

FFSFFSFFS · 07/08/2020 14:28

I just think that if you're going to examine an area in which women's agency is undermined - being killed by violent men is a kinda odd one to pick that is very difficult to logically argue. And if you're going to argue that women shouldn't be discriminated against - that they tend to get lower prison sentences is again kinda of an odd one - particularly when within the same piece you acknowledge that there ARE different reasons why women lil and it is often because of abuse/vulnerability because they are women.

I genuinely don't understand how Dr Shaw's logical analysis works. If she was a first year student I would recommend going back to some basic decision tree logical analysis.

As for the comment that violence isn't sex binary but that's just a handy way to examine the date - jesus WEPT - why is it so handy Dr Shaw?? Because there is SUCH A MASSIVE DISPARITY DEPENDING ON WHAT SEX A PERSON IS. You numpty.

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feelingverylazytoday · 08/08/2020 07:49

@andyoldlabour

Strange article, talks about Canada's most notorious serial killer, Karla Homolka. Well, let's look at the facts. Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka, raped (which wouldn't have been Karla) and killed three minors. Not really up to the Peter Sutcliffe model is it? Thirteen women murdered and seven attempted murders. Or Harold Shipman, probably 250 victims.
They got caught though. There's no way of knowing how many times they would have killed if they hadn't been caught. As for the rapes, Karla Homolka participated in them. I wouldn't compare her to Harold Shipman though, that was a different type of murder, one of which there are examples of female murderers. Obviously Shipman stands out for the number of victims.
feelingverylazytoday · 08/08/2020 08:01

[quote vivariumvivariumsvivaria]Sofie Hagan announced that she's NB in a long and rambling post last year.

Nothing she has ever been involved with makes that much sense to me. So, this is no surprise.

www.sofiehagen.com/newsletters/2020/2/26/also-im-not-a-woman-2019[/quote]
This is the idiot who tried to get a cancer awareness campaign closed down on the grounds of 'fat shaming' a few years ago. So I guess anything is possible.

HoneysuckIejasmine · 08/08/2020 08:18

That article is just... Eugh. So many things wrong with it.

MonsteraCheeseplant · 08/08/2020 08:22

Number? of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad. Right?

calllaaalllaaammma · 08/08/2020 10:36

She starts off undermining the need to differentiate by sex class at all which seems the end result of the ‘logic’ of queer theory.
She then rehashes the MRA trope that women get more lenient sentences than men.
In the end she the seems to be saying that yes, there are a few rare female murderers -well we know that as so many Hollywood films and TV series’s are made about them year after year.

EyesOpening · 08/08/2020 10:36

I genuinely don't understand how Dr Shaw's logical analysis works. If she was a first year student I would recommend going back to some basic decision tree logical analysis

Yes, one of the things that struck me was that it didn’t seem to come to any conclusion. Don’t articles tend to normally start from a for/against position, then show evidence, then come to a conclusion? It seems more of a thinking out loud article, where she is trying to get her head around it and decide what she thinks, without having come to any conclusion