Mail Article - Porn’s obsession with young girls

[RandomGel]

Apologies if a thread already exists on this article published in the Mail a few days ago.

Tanith Carey author of ‘Girls Uninterrupted’ has written an interesting and equally worrying article in the Mail on Monday. Again, I note it is falling to traditionally right wing papers to raise awareness and publish articles on issues that are specifically facing women.

Carey writes passionately how her own daughter is harassed as soon as she leaves the house. How this is partially due to the expansion of the porn culture and the long term implications for young girls and women. In fact these implications are already with us as seen by the court cases around ‘rough sex’.

The journalist has written a really powerful article calling for women to mobilise, to take action and call for legislation to protect girls.

“We need legislation to prevent porn sites attracting views by showing young girls being raped, abused and harassed.

If we stand by and say nothing, the ones who pay the price are our daughters — in too many ways to count....”

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8589713/Why-porns-obsession-younger-girls-putting-daughters-danger.html

That's a well written and frankly terrifying article.

I found the article absolutely terrifying especially the normalisation of more extreme porn, including the imagery of very young women.

It is a well written article but correlation and causation are two different things.
I absolutely abhor the depiction and treatment of women in most p0rn scenes. And it definitely doesnt help in founding a decent respect level for women. I think this is where it is really really important to teach young adults to seperate fact from fiction so they grow up with a healthy respect for each other.

The issue of men perving at her young daughter is sadly as old as time. Im mid 30's and remember cars beeping, slowing down and catcalling us when we walked home in school uniforms as young teenagers. It didnt bother me at the time but in hindsight it's horrifying.

My Mum in her 60's told me flashers were incredibly commonplace when she was young.

I had to grit my teeth to finish reading that article- I have 2 DD's approaching this age range.
I rage at the thought of any man looking at them in that way.

I'm sorry Waves but "problem as old as time"?
Yes, there have always been creepy men, but porn used to be something slightly shameful- in behind a counter in the shop.
I can remember watching "Friends" and it was slightly edgy that they talked about porn in every day conversation.
And how we all laughed , cos it was only "old prudes" who would baulk at porn.

Now it's out, in the phone of every man on the street.
And, as the research shows, there's a desensitising effect, so that stuff that men might have deemed "too much" 5 years ago, is now ok.

I despair of men. They will not pull each other up over this. They will not say to their mates "look man, that's not ok".
They egg each other on, instead.

@EarlofEggMcMuffin

I wish i didnt have to, but i do agree with you. I just meant that the horrible pervy men had always existed which they have.

Some of the stuff on "lads whatsapp groups" makes me despair for humanity.

The way porn is now is worse than it’s ever been at any point in history simply because of the ease of availability.
20 years ago I was the manager of a video shop, had worked there for ten years. Our ‘adult’ section had three “Confessions of a window cleaner” type videos in it. Porn in those days would be a video bought in Soho or in a specialist section of a video shop, recorded and passed to a mate. The boyfriends I had might have magazines, but usually one or two videos. These would get trashed as soon as we moved in together.
Now all a man has to do is go to the toilet with his phone. And infinite variety of girls all at his disposal. He will have flicked through and masturbated to hundreds/thousands of them by the time he’s an adult.
The biggest trends in porn have always been taboo, usually so a company can distinguish its videos from the competitors.

That’s why squirting and anal suddenly became so popular. A friend of mine who worked in an adult video shop in Soho said he remembers when anal suddenly became mainstream. And it coincided with men suddenly asking for it from my female friends who whilst some were into it, most were scared or turned off. No one asked me for anal until I was in my late twenties which is when the trend was everywhere. Now I hear my daughters 13 year old friends talking about boys asking them to do it on first dates.

Barely legal teens has been a theme for at least 15 years if not more, but it gains traction all the time with girls who look younger and the words like “Destroying her tiny....”
Big trend now is incest. How does this make boys regard their sisters? Dads regard their daughters? Stepdads? Stepsons?

Choking - that other delightful trend. The one that is starting to show an increase in young girls saying they have been subject to unwanted choking.

It’s vile, yet people say it’s a harmless fantasy. Bravo to this article. I wish the Guardian and Independent would step up and take some responsibility. If I were to post that article on my social media most of my friends would drown it out by complaining about the source.

I don't really think I'd blame men for not saying anything to their friends - the fact is that a lot of pop culture says that it is normal and healthy, and many women also buy into that.

You can find men and women who don't, but usually because somehow they've either been explicitly taught different values, or they've seen the seedy side of it more obviously.

I don't imagine that the market will ever completely disappear, but it's better for everyone when it is seen as socially unacceptable and controlled. There are lots of people then who avoid it, understand why it's problematic even if they experiment some as teens, and it doesn't get so far-out either without the heavy consumption.

A big question IMO is how it became so generally accepted, and how to get people to question that. Part of the narrative, and the same applied to more exotic sexual practices as well, is that people have "always" done this stuff, they just kept it hush hush - a la Masters and Johnson. Only unsophisticated people, supposedly, believe most people didn't always do x, y, or z.

Poor Grace didn’t ask to be murdered. I’m putting this here because this has everything to do with Carey’s article:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8598313/Grace-Millanes-murderer-appeals-conviction-life-jail.html

Utterly vile. I'm glad that the Mail published the article, but it does (again) highlight it's own hypocrisy with the sidebar - Carey writes
'But can we remind ourselves that this is 2020 — not 1982, when The Benny Hill Show was still on our screens?'
And at the side is a list of -titillation- stories about women wearing very little - and the descriptors 'racy', 'display', 'revealing'
Who needs Benny Hill making fun of male lust, when you can get it without comment in your paper?
(Not a defence of BH)

[quote Wavescrashingonthebeach]@EarlofEggMcMuffin

I wish i didnt have to, but i do agree with you. I just meant that the horrible pervy men had always existed which they have.

Some of the stuff on "lads whatsapp groups" makes me despair for humanity.[/quote]
Sorry Waves I thought you were apologising for this behaviour.
Tone doesn't translate on a screen.

@AsTreesWalking

Utterly vile. I'm glad that the Mail published the article, but it does (again) highlight it's own hypocrisy with the sidebar - Carey writes 'But can we remind ourselves that this is 2020 — not 1982, when The Benny Hill Show was still on our screens?' And at the side is a list of -titillation- stories about women wearing very little - and the descriptors 'racy', 'display', 'revealing' Who needs Benny Hill making fun of male lust, when you can get it without comment in your paper? (Not a defence of BH)

I agree AsTrees. That was my thought- the hypocrisy of the "sidebar of shame" alongside that article.

But, it's the degree of titlliation. While it's on the same continuum, and it is part of the commodification of women, the sidebar is nowhere near the degree of degradation depicted in porn.

I don't really think I'd blame men for not saying anything to their friends - the fact is that a lot of pop culture says that it is normal and healthy, and many women also buy into that

You know Goosefoot I would have agreed with you a few years ago.

But, if you are on this board, you know where the power in society lies.
We all know the power of social attitudes. Right now, where I am, if I go into shops without a facemark, I feel naked and wrong.

Women are the weaker group in society, not only physically, but in terms of social influence and capital.
If men started expressing disgust at others using this extreme porn, that would be powerful.

As it is, we cannot even name the problem in "polite society" because no-one wants to bring up the word "porn" in those circles.
I have mentioned it in my children's parents education evenings....................lots of shifting in seats, uncomfortable silence, and moving off the topic.

The reality is that most of us here have probably never watched those videos and would probably be ill by the time it was finished.
So, women dont actually know what our young men are watching.

Men, real actual decent men, need to step up.

Earl I agree, it's not the same as porn, but it does contribute to the general atmosphere of 'women and girls are there to be sexy'.

I have always has a problem with porn not only as it centres the pleasure of men or that women are expected to smile and perform and play along. It gives a distorted view of the female body so that now we have young men who are repelled by any body hair.

Mostly though it is because I am aware of the exploitation and blatant abuse of the women, many are brutalised through the filming, pressured to perform ‘bareback’ by the studio bosses and directors So many come from abusive backgrounds as the late Linda Borman (who performed as Linda Lovelace) made clear, and many were and are coerced and pimped out.

And we ridiculous female celebrities talking about how powerful they feel by ‘reclaiming their sexuality’ whole dancing in tiny bits of clothing for the titillation of men. Wow such liberation.

We now have Pornhub where films can be homemade - usually without female consent - and shared with friends and used as leverage to blackmail, as revenge over a breakup.

And whenever objections to porn are raised you’re seen as religious Mary Whitehouse figure or a prude. Also see the sheer rage to the proposed Digital Economy Act 2017 which would have attempted age restrictions on accessing porn.

We do need to mobilise fo do something and I hope men will join as they see how their daughters and sisters will be affected because culture is saturated.

It is going to be a hard battle to get anywhere.

SorryWavesI thought you were apologising for this behaviour.
Tone doesn't translate on a screen.

Its alright i hate both porn and pervs. But pervs have always existed. But i agree with all the comments that the normalisation of extreme acts have affected the behaviour of men, and society as a whole, and potentially made this issue worse.
Its just such a can of worms subject and when i talk about it in real life people look at me like i have 2 heads and that i am the one with the problem.
Pandoras out the box now and as pp have said, a man has to only go to the bathroom with a smartphone to access all kinds.
We need strong education for teenagers that porn isnt real and to teach them to respect one another.

Why is it that the only place where we see any pushback against the tide of pornography is where women talk?

Why are men not on their many many many many male dominated forums (fora?) talking about how much harm this causes?

Hear, hear RE hydra head for bringing this topic up IRL. It seems the world is simultaneously watching this stuff all the time yet blissfully unaware of its existence. It's become an open secret.

@EarlofEggMcMuffin

I had to grit my teeth to finish reading that article- I have 2 DD's approaching this age range. I rage at the thought of any man looking at them in that way.

I'm sorry Waves but "problem as old as time"?
Yes, there have always been creepy men, but porn used to be something slightly shameful- in behind a counter in the shop.
I can remember watching "Friends" and it was slightly edgy that they talked about porn in every day conversation.
And how we all laughed , cos it was only "old prudes" who would baulk at porn.

Now it's out, in the phone of every man on the street.
And, as the research shows, there's a desensitising effect, so that stuff that men might have deemed "too much" 5 years ago, is now ok.

I despair of men. They will not pull each other up over this. They will not say to their mates "look man, that's not ok".
They egg each other on, instead.

I agree.

Someone linked to the Hope Not Hate study on misogyny in schools, and they found that it's actually growing amongst young people, especially men. Girls are accepting a level of casual misogyny now that we'd hoped to have seen the back of.

If kids see porn that degrades women horribly - violent, demeaning, misogynist in the purest form - with real ease of access from early in secondary school, then of course that will form some of their ideas on not only sexual relationships, but women's value.

The internet has meant porn (which used to be dodgy VHS cassettes and half hidden mags, and then something kids could sneak from the family computer when parents were asleep or out, if they were careful to scrub their histories) is now totally available to kids on their phones. And there are no limits online either - porn used to be subject to some controls, in terms of how violent or extreme it could be. Online, that's gone. It can be taken into school, so even if parents are vigilant over their own kids' acess, they can't control what other kids share with them.

Catcalling and street harassment and weird men following you is as old as time. Hardcore porn streamed for kids as they grow up is anything but. And film footage that is completely based upon degrading sexual abuse of women is not "sex positive". It's toxic.

Misogyny needs to be recognised as a hate crime, and women a protected strand for reporting and recording it. We need a way for people to actually notice. To see it. As things stand, it's so commonplace it's like fish trying to get people to notice water.

The other terrible thing about porn is that it doesnt just lead to desensitisation and need for more extreme porn, the need for more extreme stimulation spills into real life as well.

So these young men, at what should be the peak of their sexual lives literally cant get it up, or at least cant achieve orgasm without props, anal, choking etc.

And it affects women too, both as recipients of the need for men to have a more "extreme" experience to get off, and as porn consumers becoming desensitized themselves.

@EarlofEggMcMuffin

I don't really think I'd blame men for not saying anything to their friends - the fact is that a lot of pop culture says that it is normal and healthy, and many women also buy into that

You know Goosefoot I would have agreed with you a few years ago.

But, if you are on this board, you know where the power in society lies.
We all know the power of social attitudes. Right now, where I am, if I go into shops without a facemark, I feel naked and wrong.

Women are the weaker group in society, not only physically, but in terms of social influence and capital.
If men started expressing disgust at others using this extreme porn, that would be powerful.

As it is, we cannot even name the problem in "polite society" because no-one wants to bring up the word "porn" in those circles.
I have mentioned it in my children's parents education evenings....................lots of shifting in seats, uncomfortable silence, and moving off the topic.

The reality is that most of us here have probably never watched those videos and would probably be ill by the time it was finished.
So, women dont actually know what our young men are watching.

Men, real actual decent men, need to step up.

Oh, I think women have lots of social influence and capital. But only a minority are using it to speak out against porn. Women have in the past had very effective campaigns against moral problems like porn, strip shows, alcohol abuse, etc.

But the cultural capture by the sexual revolution has been almost totally effective. Even those uncomfortable with porn today have very little language to express the problem, and even less to talk about the deeper issues of why it is bad. All that has been consigned to the prudes of earlier eras, or religion. At the same time, many believe it is next to impossible, even unhealthy, for people to repress sexual urges.

I agree somewhat Goose that women have lots of social influence, but I do think it is less than that of men.

And we are siloed off into "women's areas" so we can have influence over breastfeeding or period poverty...but not so much over "male issues", which is where I see porn lying.

The reality is that most of us here have probably never watched those videos and would probably be ill by the time it was finished. So, women dont actually know what our young men are watching.
Yes. Which is why there aren't effective campaigns by women about this. Most women don't realise what is on these sites, they just think "all men do it" and move on.

Raquel Rosario Sánchez takes part in a debate at the Oxford Union.

She's the young feminist academic from the Dominican Republic, who has been relentlessly bullied at Bristol University by transactivists. Could do with some digging, if anyone has a spade to hand.

Really interesting on that debate. She's wonderful.

@QuentinWinters

The reality is that most of us here have probably never watched those videos and would probably be ill by the time it was finished. So, women dont actually know what our young men are watching. Yes. Which is why there aren't effective campaigns by women about this. Most women don't realise what is on these sites, they just think "all men do it" and move on.

Exactly Quentin. And, I suspect there's an "internet generation" divide also- people over (say) 35 probably aren't/werent as exposed to this. So, are not aware that porn has moved massively from the "vanilla" porn they may be familiar with.

Plus, there's a social taboo about talking about it though not about bloody watching it.

Plus, there's a social taboo about talking about it
Well yeah, suits men if women don't talk about it so don't know what it involved.
Then most of the companies have a vast PR machine/good marketing/lobbying.
It's a disgrace