Being uncompromising. It's surprisingly difficult.

[JellySlice]

I think it's more than just feminine socialisation. My siblings were often jealous of me because they thought that Jelly always got what she wanted. No, Jelly was the only one willing to compromise.

SliceMama: The red bike you wanted is too expensive.
JellySlice: Oh dear, I really like the red bike. Which one can I have?
SliceMama: The blue one or the green one.
JellySlice: I'll have the green one, then. Thanks mum.

Whereas
SliceMama: The red bike you wanted is too expensive.
CustardSlice: But that's the one I want.
SliceMama: It's too expensive, choose another one. You could have the blue or the green.
CustardSlice: I want the red one. It's not fair, you bought Jelly a bike, but not me!

This genuinely happened, and the sex of the sibling is irrelevant.

So not only has society taught me that a woman is pliant, quiet, kind and helpful, but my family dynamic, my role in the family, is the compromiser.

My first instinct is to compromise, to help others cope. OK, if 'woman' bothers you so much, we'll use 'female'. OK, some people suffer such genuine dysphoria that we should budge over and help make life easier for them. But I know that ultimately this will help nobody. I need to woman-up and say "No."

I need to break the habits of a lifetime and refuse to compromise.

Compromise is fine, but each party involved needs to do it or it’s not compromise.

This is the problem we have.

I think It just takes practice. Always say 'no'

I was brought up with ‘if you ask, you don’t get’.

I think I used to get excited if I thought a treat might have been in the offing. I am still trying to work harder to push past that many years later but am emphatically not passing that on to my children and am getting better at pushing for something on their behalf.

I understand what you're saying. I have always taken quite extreme positions or have been quite black and white but I do listen and try to put myself in someone else shoes, if they will do the same for me.

I have faced down too many 'debates' in this now to compromise. I don't think compromise it going to help us now. This does mean everyone on either side is entrenched but an inch will become more than an mile and it's time they made an effort to compromise with us.

To be frank, I will be unforgiving and require a grovelling apology before I even consider joining the discussion. Water under the bridge and all that.

You'll be fine Jelly. Define your boundaries and hold your line. It gains respect in the end and everyone knows where they stand.

Interestingly, I was brought up with "If you don't ask you don't get". In the sense that you shouldn't wait for life to hand you things on a platter, but should go out and make things happen yourself, chance your luck.

I think it really helps if you can stop worrying about being likeable.

I'm not suggesting trampling all over people to get what you want but being self-possessed and as it were turn off your antennae for knowing what everyone else wants (usually highly-developed in girls and women).

@JellySlice

Interestingly, I was brought up with "If you don't ask you don't get". In the sense that you shouldn't wait for life to hand you things on a platter, but should go out and make things happen yourself, chance your luck.

Yes, an approach that I feel is much more productive. I don’t think ‘if you ask you don’t get’ did me any favours in life (even if meant with loving intentions) so have been working on rectifying that :-)) and I’ve succeeded with my kids

@Deliriumoftheendless

Compromise is fine, but each party involved needs to do it or it’s not compromise.

This is the problem we have.

Sometimes compromise is fine, sometimes it's not.

And it's not ok for me to reach a compromise with A if it's taking something away from B.

I think Lettera makes an important point - not worrying (too) much about being likeable is important.

My DD(10) is phenomenally - and genuinely - empathetic, kind, generous and considerate. DH and I joke privately that we have no idea where she gets it from, because she is a far nicer person than either of us. I am really grateful to mumsnet, and particularly this board, for making me aware of how important it is that we encourage her to put herself first, build and defend her boundaries, and not to be afraid of hurting other people's feelings when it can't be avoided. We now frame stuff like this around being considerate of other people and that although 'being kind' is a wonderful thing, it should only ever be on her terms.

I am still at the compromise stage

But only just...and not for everything

And I’m rapidly being pushed away from compromise

Especially by those who seem to want to shove me in a little box of ‘terf’

I'm the sort who likes to compromise in real life, make everyone happy and make sacrifices for the ones I love. But only up to a point. I don't (can't) compromise on my core values, my sense of fairness nor my principles. That's when I get very vocal and stubborn and refuse to budge as it's about my own integrity.

@JellySlice

I think it's more than just feminine socialisation. My siblings were often jealous of me because they thought that Jelly always got what she wanted. No, Jelly was the only one willing to compromise.

SliceMama: The red bike you wanted is too expensive.
JellySlice: Oh dear, I really like the red bike. Which one can I have?
SliceMama: The blue one or the green one.
JellySlice: I'll have the green one, then. Thanks mum.

Whereas
SliceMama: The red bike you wanted is too expensive.
CustardSlice: But that's the one I want.
SliceMama: It's too expensive, choose another one. You could have the blue or the green.
CustardSlice: I want the red one. It's not fair, you bought Jelly a bike, but not me!

This genuinely happened, and the sex of the sibling is irrelevant.

So not only has society taught me that a woman is pliant, quiet, kind and helpful, but my family dynamic, my role in the family, is the compromiser.

My first instinct is to compromise, to help others cope. OK, if 'woman' bothers you so much, we'll use 'female'. OK, some people suffer such genuine dysphoria that we should budge over and help make life easier for them. But I know that ultimately this will help nobody. I need to woman-up and say "No."

I need to break the habits of a lifetime and refuse to compromise.

Um how does your very sensible decision to accept the bicycle your mother could afford lead to the conclusion that so not only has society taught me that a woman is pliant, quiet, kind and helpful, but my family dynamic, my role in the family, is the compromiser?

Is there a part of the anecdote missing? Did your sibling persist and get the expensive bicycle? Or did they cut their nose off to spite their face and prefer nothing if they couldn't have the preferred colour

If it was the former I don't see how your anecdote lead to this conclusion I need to break the habits of a lifetime and refuse to compromise. Not compromising in the situation you described would be refusing to have a bike at all if it wasn't the preferred, but too expensive, one.

I would get things (actual things, like the bike, or freedoms, like a later curfew) earlier than my siblings or at a younger age because I was willing to compromise. My siblings got things, too. But not necessarily the model they wanted, and often much later than I did, and sometimes they missed out entirely (like the later curfew!) because they weren't willing to compromise.

Compromising is ingrained in me. My default way of getting what I want is to accept that I may not get exactly what I want, but what I do get will also be good and the giver will also be contented.

Great if I want a bicycle. Not so great if I want it recognised that only adult human females can be women.

I'm still not seeing why compromising when it is the sensible and pragmatic thing to do (a) has any connection to "female socialisation" or (b) is a "habit of a lifetime which needs to be broken.

The world needs sensible and pragmatic compromises.

Compromise is fine, but each party involved needs to do it or it’s not compromise.

I discovered this as a young adult and it nearly broke me. If you are in a relationship with a non-compromiser, it gradually (or sometimes very quickly) becomes abusive.

And no, Dido, compromise won’t work here. Women are starting out in this political “debate” from a position where our rights are already compromised. We are now approaching (or already in) the equivalent of an abusive relationship. The reason lots of us are saying no is that we recognise this feeling all too well.

@Deliriumoftheendless

Compromise is fine, but each party involved needs to do it or it’s not compromise.

This is the problem we have.

Exactly this ^^

@DidoLamenting

I'm still not seeing why compromising when it is the sensible and pragmatic thing to do (a) has any connection to "female socialisation" or (b) is a "habit of a lifetime which needs to be broken.

The world needs sensible and pragmatic compromises.

I think the OPs point is that compromising is indeed often pragmatic, and because it's often the reasonable approach people may be too ready to do so in situations where they shouldn't. Maybe it's a more common trait in women who don't have force to fall back on.

But we can't compromise if it's at the expense of reality. And we shouldn't compromise if we're trading something which belongs to others too that we mightn't care about but they do. And we should be very wary of appeals to compromise if we've already made compromises and the other side is pushing further.

All your anecdotes relate to how through compromise/compliance you got more of the things you wanted, from your parents, than your siblings did . There were clearly some tricky family dynamics.

That’s not IMO relevant to family and social pressures on girls/women to ‘give’, undertake ‘emotional labour’ and defer to others’ wishes, nor to the trans vs women/children’s interests clashes.

Compromising has nothing to do with being a woman or femininity.
It’s just a negotiating tactic and it’s why your initial request should be more than what you want so that the inevitable compromise is for what you really want.

With the trans issues compromise wouldn’t even be possible IMO on many of the specific things some people and lobby groups want. There are conflicting interests.

The worry is that schools are so into 'be kind' that if girls take this on board without having their core built up, they will be trampled on. Be kind can't be taught in isolation and teachers have to recognise that girls might take this on more readily than boys. This will be an extremely retrograde step for women. I'm sure this has been discussed at length somewhere

The dictionary has two definitions of compromise

1. two parties making concessions to reach an agreement
2. settling for something less favourable

We can be 1 but should aim to be less 2 about things that we care about

And obviously depends on context... some things should never be compromised/conceded (if you wear your seatbelt on the way there, you can ride on the roof on the way home)

@highame

The worry is that schools are so into 'be kind' that if girls take this on board without having their core built up, they will be trampled on. Be kind can't be taught in isolation and teachers have to recognise that girls might take this on more readily than boys. This will be an extremely retrograde step for women. I'm sure this has been discussed at length somewhere

What is wrong with “be kind”? It’s good that is taught to boys and girls. I think it’s not taught enough imho given the number of threads on here about disabled people being verbally abused by unkind members of the public regarding not wearing a mask.

I think if people expect compromise to mean “you give me what I want” - which is the tactic of abusers everywhere- then it can’t work. But it’s not a proper compromise.

I do think sometimes we all have to sacrifice something to make society work, but no one should have to sacrifice more than is reasonable. But then others have different ideas of what is reasonable.

I like a win-win situation, but if the other party expects more than they are prepared to give, fuck ‘em. Fuck ‘em in the ear (as Kyle Broflovski said).