Being uncompromising. It's surprisingly difficult.

[JellySlice]

I think it's more than just feminine socialisation. My siblings were often jealous of me because they thought that Jelly always got what she wanted. No, Jelly was the only one willing to compromise.

SliceMama: The red bike you wanted is too expensive.
JellySlice: Oh dear, I really like the red bike. Which one can I have?
SliceMama: The blue one or the green one.
JellySlice: I'll have the green one, then. Thanks mum.

Whereas
SliceMama: The red bike you wanted is too expensive.
CustardSlice: But that's the one I want.
SliceMama: It's too expensive, choose another one. You could have the blue or the green.
CustardSlice: I want the red one. It's not fair, you bought Jelly a bike, but not me!

This genuinely happened, and the sex of the sibling is irrelevant.

So not only has society taught me that a woman is pliant, quiet, kind and helpful, but my family dynamic, my role in the family, is the compromiser.

My first instinct is to compromise, to help others cope. OK, if 'woman' bothers you so much, we'll use 'female'. OK, some people suffer such genuine dysphoria that we should budge over and help make life easier for them. But I know that ultimately this will help nobody. I need to woman-up and say "No."

I need to break the habits of a lifetime and refuse to compromise.

I don't think there is anything wrong with being kind but so often women are led to believe that being kind means being a doormat. Look at all the threads on Mumsnet where a friend or sibling is being impossibly demanding, wanting childcare or lifts or money and the poster doesn't want to stand up to them and say enough is enough, because she doesn't want to inconvenience them even though they're happy to inconvenience her.

@PlanDeRaccordement - I'll try and explain why I have a massive issue with the #bekind message.

First off, what is kindness, in this context?

Should I always be kind?

Should I be kind to everyone?

What should I do when being kind to one person will mean not being kind to another person?

Do I have to be kind to someone who is being unkind to someone else? How unkind would someone have to be before they no longer deserve my kindness?

Do I have to be kind if I don't want to?

Do I have to be kind if it means doing something that will make me uncomfortable?

Do I have to be kind if it means contradicting, or not standing up for, my beliefs?

Should I be kind and not debate with people who have views that are opposed to my own, if that debate causes them to be upset?

I don't think anyone would disagree that taking a few moments to help someone who is struggling with their shopping, or offering a cup of tea to a lonely neighbour, are kind things - the sort of things we should all do more off, and encourage in our children.

But what about when my 14 year old daughter is distressed because a boy who wants to date her gets increasingly upset when she declines him? When he threatens suicide unless she is 'kind' to him and gives him a chance? Can you see how an education system that reinforces the 'be kind' message makes it hard for her to understand her boundaries, let alone enforce them?

When people say #bekind, I think what they really mean is #dontbeanasshole. Verbally abusing someone who is disabled (actually, verbally abusing anyone) has fuck all to do with kindness. You don't have to be kind to not be a dick.

(and that is without even mentioning the potential for the #bekind message to be exploited by adults in their grooming and abuse of children)

I think the OPs point is that compromising is indeed often pragmatic, and because it's often the reasonable approach people may be too ready to do so in situations where they shouldn't. Maybe it's a more common trait in women who don't have force to fall back on

But the anecdotes given were completely irrelevant to that point. As Dozer said

All your anecdotes relate to how through compromise/compliance you got more of the things you wanted, from your parents, than your siblings did . There were clearly some tricky family dynamics

Or this Compromising has nothing to do with being a woman or femininity.
It’s just a negotiating tactic

OFGS I did not say that compromising was anything to do with being a woman or with femininity.

I specifically said "I think it's more than just feminine socialisation". And that the sexes of my siblings who refused to compromise was irrelevant. They were both boys and girls.

Me, my character, my family dynamic is that I compromise. And that it is a challenge for me to change this.

JellySlice 😄 Just go to show, we need to read what's being written, however, ppl often go off kilter or make assumptions about what's being said..........I'm always doing it

I don't know - I think we all learn certain behaviours that work to get us what we want, or learn what doesn't.

But none of them work all the time. Being able to to compromise is a good skill and in many cases leads to a low-stress resolution. In other cases it doesn't work.

Some people learn they need to bully through every situation, that's what worked for them growing up, or in their youth, whatever. Great, it works well for some things, but it screws up a lot of others. As a go-to it tends to destroy personal relationships.

We

Sometimes compromise is totally inappropriate. If someone is threatening to invade your country, you don’t offer them half of it and beg them to leave the rest alone! Your only recourse is to fight them to preserve your territory.
And compromise is impossible with an implacable bully who will never meet you halfway, but just continue to push until they have everything and you nothing.
It may be difficult to override your social conditioning - being brainwashed with feminine gender stereotypes, to make you compliant, “kind” and submissive- but it is vital.
Most men couldn’t care less if we lose women’s sports, refuges, changing rooms, language etc. We have to defend our own hard won rights, and that means being prepared to protest, lobby, argue, question and fight as long as it takes, to secure the few spaces that we actually have in this world. If you can’t do it for yourself, do it for your daughters.

I like to explicitly give my child credit for his persistence and negotiating skills eg trying to use humour / charm when refused if child keeps asking. I don’t always give in but I am clear about what is happening and tell him that these are useful strategies that could come in useful in future!

Although I am very clear that when it comes to access to a person a no is a no.

I would like to think I would say the same to a girl...

PS agree about the pitfalls of be kind. I say be kind , but only if the person has not done something bad to you and not stopped doing it despite a warning.

"Compromise is fine, but each party involved needs to do it or it’s not compromise."

Well, I am today years old before I actually realised this! Now I feel quite guilty for not doing it properly for my children.

"Be kind!" is far too woolly a recommendation to be at all useful. It has a lot of traction on SM (In a world where you can be anything... with pretty script and romantic background aimed squarely at women) but what does it mean?

Usually, keep quiet, don't rock the boat, don't demand the return of things snatched from you, don't stand up for yourself, be nice to people who are being horrible to you because you don't know what they're going through.

It's a recipe for being stripped of your rights and safety and having nothing and nobody to fall back on. 🤷🏼‍♀️

I think young girls/women are scared. Hence adherence to woke

I think they are aware deep down that #bekind does not prepare them for life

My issue with compromise on this topic is..I believe we already have compromised. In calling transwomen transwomen instead of men, thats a compromise. Thought we know they are men, they dislike being called men, but they are not women, so transwomen seems the happy medium no? Ditto transmen (though transmen dont seem as shouty and entitled on the whole..)

However, the this compromise is not enough now. And we are expected to give give give, just what they want. Which is no longer compromise, its just demanding. But refusing demands, apparently makes the people who compromised in the first place to help the people asking..nasty bigots who won't budge

There is no way really to compromise on womens spaces. But I still think the only solution, if anything is to be changed, is for additional mixed sex provision to be provided where possible. Yes this will not be overnight, hell many places still don't have disabled provisions, but..well its more reasonable than just expecting to take over womens areas (again, this doesnt apply to transmen really, as its up to men what compromises they wish to make, fuck all to do with me)

I know all this^ yet STILL I find myself trying to think through acceptable compromises. Luckily, TRAs always show themselves as unwilling to even listen, nevermind think or consider womens POV so my urge to compromise goes away. somewhat. But its always my first thought on it all..

That goes fo the GRA too actually. There were changes that made it easier for (5k ish) transsexuals... compromise (though also a way to avoid legalising same sex marriage ). But now, demands for this to cover 500k random people who claim the trans identity. And instant bigot for refusing..or even saying it needs to be spoken about instead of just done.

Great post by cheese (that's my downfall too!)

Being kind is a choice. Your choice.

It gets muddled into questions about legal rights and discrimination but it's absolutely key to remember that if somebody appeals to you to "be kind" you're entitled to say no.

@BatShite

That goes fo the GRA too actually. There were changes that made it easier for (5k ish) transsexuals... compromise (though also a way to avoid legalising same sex marriage ). But now, demands for this to cover 500k random people who claim the trans identity. And instant bigot for refusing..or even saying it needs to be spoken about instead of just done.

Yes - the GRA was the compromise which most women were sort of ok with, though it was not something that afaik we were consulted on and which is already not ok for a lot of women.

And in hindsight it was probably a mistake because it gave credence to the fiction of transwomen being women.

At the political level, there is also the question of compromising in the sense of pragmatism. One of the other active threads at the moment has some comments about the Labour Party becoming unelectable by refusing to compromise n things they consider ideals. But political progress is never made by simply refusing to accept what others think - and to some extent it doesn't even matter if you are totally right and they are totally wrong. When you have two sides who will not compromise nn matters of principle you have a gridlock where nothing happens.