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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

This board is (wonderfully) much busier than it was even just a year ago

78 replies

RoBollox · 01/08/2020 18:21

AIBU to say this board is much busier than it used to be? I'm really thankful for this sanctuary of wisdom and wit and so pleased there are more people here adding their two pennyworth.
Ive been here for about three or four years and very much a lurker. Would love to hear what brought other people here!

OP posts:
Forgivenandsetfree · 02/08/2020 06:47

I was actually first over at BC, where I joined up as I was pregnant (is that still allowed?) About 2 1/2 years ago, where I got into their AIBU. As it was so small I jumped over to MN and I don't really remember what brought me to FWR but it was a few weeks before the whole JKR thing.
My recent ex hated me on any of those pages, because he said they 'changed' me but what it really was, was that it opened my eyes to how much s* he gave me, including a few outbursts of verbal/physical aggression, so pleased to say I've left that environment and my DD, just turned 2 is asleep next to me with her hands behind her head and all stretched out Halo

EdgeOfACoin · 02/08/2020 07:55

A few things pushed me into coming to mumsnet. It was mainly because I wanted to look into trans issues on a deeper level. These are the contributing factors that brought me here:

  1. Back at the end of 2009 a close relative of my husband hanged himself by mistake while dressed as a woman. He was in his 50s at the time. After his death it transpired that he had been cross-dressing for many years and had at one stage sought medical advice about transitioning to be a woman. We found out from medical notes he had kept that he considered himself to be a woman trapped in a man's body, and that in the mid-1990s he had even started hormone treatment and was considering surgery. No one in his family had had any idea that this was going on. (He was not married and was not in a relationship so although this was a shock to the people who had to deal with the aftermath of his death, it did not affect a wife or children.) Clearly, my husband's relative chose not to go through with transition and by the late noughties that side of his life was a well-kept secret. However, I often wonder whether that would still be the case if he had lived longer. I noticed the rise to prominence of trans issues in the mainstream media in 2014 because I kept thinking 'but where was all this 5 years ago...?' At the time I believed the notion that one could be born with the wrong brain in the wrong body and presumed it applied to my husband's relative, although I found it very hard to reconcile the person I had known with the idea that he was actually a woman. It seemed absurd. However, I spent many years assuming there must have been some degree of truth to that claim and picturing how hard it must have been for him to go through life in the wrong body.
  1. On Facebook towards the end of last year someone posted an article about trans people having the wrong brain in the wrong body. I skimread it, vaguely approving of the content. Then a woman I know, who I like and respect very much commented on the article saying something like 'just be careful - there have been very few scientific studies done on this and there is no proof that someone can be born with the wrong brain'. That's all she wrote, but suddenly I felt like such a fool. I had blindly accepted this narrative and had never once properly questioned its validity or looked into its claims in more detail.
  1. Also at the end of last year I was asked to fill out a diversity questionnaire at work. I had to say whether I was 'cis', what gender I 'identified' as and what gender I had 'been assigned at birth'. It also asked me what race I identified as. The whole thing made me really quite annoyed. I didn't complete the survey out of sheer irritation and came away thinking that I needed to do more research into this subject.

I was vaguely aware of the term 'TERF', although did not know what that meant. However, I had heard somewhere that Mumsnet had a reputation for being terribly TERF-y, so I thought I would come here to see the arguments and then look into the rebuttals. I'm not sure that it was LOJ himself who effectively directed me here, but it would have been someone of his mindset.

Anyway, I got here and discovered a lot of well-educated women whose views stand up to scrutiny. Our MPs look hopelessly out of their depth and uninformed in comparison to the women on this site.

It was through this site as well that I was introduced to the existence of AGP (albeit obliquely, as threads discussing it in detail tend to get taken down). Once I knew about that, and had done some further research, everything about my husband's relative - the cross-dressing, the manner of his death, the hormones - made complete sense. A lot more sense than him having the wrong brain in his body, anyway.

I'm also glad to see on this site feminist arguments about pornography and prostitution. The views on these subjects chime with mine, but they are not often presented elsewhere.

So, thank you Mumsnet. After I started reading these threads, I wrote a thank you note to JKR when she stood up for Maya Forstater. JKR has since said that it was the amount of thank-yous she received that gave her the confidence to speak up further. I expect Mumsnet inspired a lot of people to do the same.

Deathraystare · 02/08/2020 08:06

Yes I am glad I fond these pages too! In the 70's I read a lot a lot of feminist stuff but these pages have really opened up my eyes.

BaronEssoStation · 02/08/2020 08:13

That was a great post, edge.

EdgeOfACoin · 02/08/2020 09:04

Thank you, @BaronEssoStation Smile

Gwynfluff · 02/08/2020 09:19

@Jeeeez

But we've decided that he's feeling a bit sensitive as his PhD was heavily based upon Foucault, and that aspects of Foucault's work have created a bit of a monster!

Your partner might want to read this wonderful piece by Jane Clare Jones. I’ve been massively influenced by post-structuralist thought and Jane Clare sums up why it’s possible to have this critical lens and still believe in the material based oppression of the body - the ending of the piece - a reposte to Judith Butler - is divine!

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/janeclarejones.com/2018/07/18/post-structuralism-butler-and-bodies/amp/

Jeeeez · 02/08/2020 09:38

Thanks @Gwynfluff I'll get him to read it. And try to make sense of it myself, though I find a lot of it really hard going.

He's a good man and does now totally get the GC angle. I have become quite obsessed & occasionally ranty tbh and he thinks I could be a bit kinder, altho I'm mostly ranting about the activists rather than individuals. He's a look at it from all sides type of person, which I also tend to be, but sometimes you just have to draw a line in the sand.

I suspect he's also pissed off because my contribution to and standards of housekeeping (always pretty poor) have fallen off a cliff since getting sucked in here!!

Lamahaha · 02/08/2020 09:53

I was actually on Gransnet a few years ago, for a while!
I was on a different forum, a general discussion forum, early 2018 when they began discussing "gender neutral" toilets. I said I disagreed; i wanted single sex for various reasons. Everybody jumped on me and informed me how unwoke I was.
One person, however, messaged me privately and said I should check out Mumsnet as that's where the really cool women hang out; his wife is on here (but I don't know which of you she is!)

I came and never left. I no longer post on that old forum.
In the meantime I found out I've met one other person here irl, through my daughter (her friend's mother) and another person recognised me through my rather revealing posts and identified herself (waves!) via PM.

I can't help thinking that history will regard us the way we now regard the Suffragettes. The battle is probably just as hard.

DialSquare · 02/08/2020 09:59

A search on something (I can't remember what) lead me here. I stated to read Active and came across FWR. I was reading opinions that matched with mine so carried on reading and learning for a number of years. I started posting a couple of weeks ago and would encourage any other lurkers to do so too. I believe it helps the heavy lifters to know many more of us are out there when they get weary with it all.

twitteriserasingus · 02/08/2020 11:15

I first became aware of the trans debate when there was disruption by lesbians at London Pride in 2018. I wondered how it could be that Stonewall were against lesbians asserting their right to be - on dipping into the debate I became aware of 'the cotton ceiling'.

I am convinced that if I were younger, my teenage tomboy self, attracted to women and uncomfortable in my puberty body would have been transed.

Since then I've kept an interest in news stories because my eyes were open to it. The world is a scary place now but people here are sane. I post very occasionally mainly in the last year or so, I'm mainly a lurker but so glad this board exists when others e.g. Reddit Gender Critical are shut down or are just hostile to our views.

truthisarevolutionaryact · 02/08/2020 12:23

Forgivenandsetfree
Glad to hear that you're free of the toxic ex and that FWR helped with a bit of 'eye opening'. Enjoy your little one.

moptophairshop · 02/08/2020 13:10

I've been lurking on FWR since the JKR Twitter pile on. I still spend most of my time lurking and am in awe of the comprehensive, articulate viewpoints I read here daily- I'm yet to see anything of comparable insight anywhere else.
Prior to JKR, I hadn't given women's rights a great deal of thought (which I now find embarrassing but it just hadn't been on my radar). I knew of the 2010 Equality Act and have had to use it personally as I am protected under the disabled category. I had taken for granted the protection it gives me under the sex category and it's terrifying that there are groups who want to diminish these rights. It is so clear that there are areas of conflict between trans rights and women's rights so I don't understand how one side of the argument is shut down and deemed offensive. That is not how conflict is resolved and those in power have a duty to allow both sides to speak. The latest statement from the Labour party which throws Rosie Duffield under the bus is now my tipping point and I will be writing my first letter to both local mp and Keir Starmer. They need to know why they have have lost my support (I've only ever voted Labour). Without reading this board I am certain I wouldn't have had the confidence to write such a letter, so thank you everyone on here.

PopperUppleton · 02/08/2020 14:30

I used to be in here in another guise and started reading from the Man Friday stuff at Hampstead ponds, then read everything avidly and followed that excellent secret live tweeting from Yaniv's court aoorearance with a dropped jaw. It then got a bit much and I deleted my Mumsnet account, but couldn't stay away so signed back up.

I'm getting braver and emailed the Baroness following the 'call to arms' and would have joined in in Edinburgh today if I'd been able to.

Radicalised by Mumsnet, and proud to be so. I also ❤️ JKR

ToriaPumpkin · 02/08/2020 16:05

I came to the pregnancy boards about ten years ago when TTC my first, stayed for chat and AIBU and drifted over here a few months ago when I saw that trans threads never went well over there.

I am absolutely horrified at the state of the world and the absolute shitshow my daughter might grow up in, when explaining it all to my best friend who came to me after the JKR batshittery to ask "What actually is going on?" I told her that I cannot bear the thought that my daughter (or hers) might one day have to file a police report referring to their female rapist. She and I are both survivors of abusive relationships and both suffered childhood sexual assault and we had a long, long chat about it where I was able to send her links and sources from this wonderful, wonderful board to back up my fears and she admitted that she felt the same but felt unable to discuss it or ask questions.

We have a very close mutual friend who thinks we're both bigots over it all and we're playing a delicate balancing act of not discussing it with her, but she's wavering I think. She shared and retweeted lots of things until recently and had argued with me when I told her some of the things I'd read about going on at mermaids and the Tavistock, but she's less vocal now, so I hope the scales are falling from her eyes.

So thank you FWR. I've read, and I've retweeted and donated and supported and emailed my MP and I will continue to do so. I just wish I still lived in Edinburgh so could have gone to speakers corner today!

Scout2016 · 02/08/2020 16:23

I have been following a lot of women's rights and trans debate issues through AIBU and watching what was happening with Graham Linnehan. Then a friend posting in support of the GRA... Frequently there are links in AIBU to fantastic threads here which are so informative. The reference to the Professor Kathleen Stock speech was a lightbulb of clarity.
Last night I got worked up about a artist I "follow" writing a big long post about how they are "feminine but not woman". And that they felt they must come out as Gender None Conforming because the weight of it was too much to bear. They also have anxiety and eating disorders... Other people were saying things like "I get you, I am agender and the world seems crazy to me." I'm thinking what is the difference between agender and GNC? Then I thought,not for the first time, why oh why the need for all these labels? Is it just self obsession? Unmet mental health needs? Or step the MH issues caused by the identy issues and a label offers some resolution?
Then this morning I saw about Rosie Duffield...
Today I have come directly to the feminist bit because I want to feel the world has not got mad...
I would like to join a movement like Women's Place but that will take me sometime.
Gone a bit off topic sorry OP!

Delphinium20 · 02/08/2020 16:59

@Stellwagen yes...I'm an American and am blown away by the intelligence of UK women plus all the rest on MN. US education is pretty abysmal. As to feminism, I'm older and didn't see this coming. During the last Olympics when I watched Semenya win, I started wondering what the heck was happening. Clearly she was a male, (maybe not aware when she was young), but those races were not fair for women. I had no hate for her but whenever I raised the issue, I was shut down with the whole "identity" thing. Then the world started getting stranger with pronoun pronouncements and friends' children were suddenly non-binary. I then found GC on Reddit and met so many UK women and was astonished at the mess with selfID. Plus, I was rather impressed with how cheeky you all are -you don't preface every opinion with a long list of why you deserve to have an opinion. So refreshing.

Apollo440 · 02/08/2020 17:36

This is heartening stuff. Glad to see so many more people waking up to the issue. It is only the beginning and our numbers will grow exponentially as more people discover what really is in store with self Id. I discovered FWR a few years ago with the attack on a Feminist bookshop in Vancouver by TRAs and the deplatforming of Germaine Greer which piqued my interest as to what was going on. The dishonesty and lies of the trans movement in avoiding debate or scrutiny never ceases to amaze me but finally the wheels are coming off. It will be a long struggle before we can free ourselves of gender ideology nonsense but we have started.

EndoplasmicReticulum · 02/08/2020 17:46

I have been on Mumsnet for years. A few years ago I noticed more threads popping up in AIBU or active about the trans issue. I didn't understand what it was about really, so followed over to here and a rather large penny dropped. I've been reading ever since.

newrubylane · 02/08/2020 20:40

I joined MN two years ago when I started TTC, and I think it was a thread in AIBU that first led me over here some time I. The last year. I have dropped in sporadically and absorbed, until the JKR debacle, at which point I really started reading and learning in earnest. This is the first time I've felt moved to really involve myself in a political movement, in the few little ways I can.

PiataMaiNei · 02/08/2020 20:50

Someone should tweet this link to Owen Jones.

Siablue · 02/08/2020 21:06

@PiataMaiNei

Someone should tweet this link to Owen Jones.
I wouldn’t bother. He probably reads it anyway. Hi Owen.👋🏽
SheWhoMustNotBeHeard · 02/08/2020 21:11

It's interesting how JKR's experiences sent so many of us here.

PiataMaiNei · 02/08/2020 21:58

He probably has anyone who would blocked too sia!

nepeta · 02/08/2020 22:58

Owen, if you are reading here, please give the source(s) for your numbers about transgender suicidal thoughts and so on.

DialSquare · 02/08/2020 23:06

Something else I've noticed recently is the lack of "You're all being so mean" posts. Are the people who believe that starting to change their minds? Or, thanks to JKR, do they now know that most of the population agree with us and Twitter is not the real world?