It gets worse - a new, fresh hell

[WootMoggie]

Medical paper in which it is argued that non-binary children should be given puberty blockers FOR LIFE
^
"In this article, we analyse the novel case of Phoenix, a non-binary adult requesting ongoing puberty suppression (OPS) to permanently prevent the development of secondary sex characteristics, as a way of affirming their gender identity. We argue that (1) the aim of OPS is consistent with the proper goals of medicine to promote well-being, and therefore could ethically be offered to non-binary adults in principle;"

"Phoenix, 18, was assigned female at birth but has identified as gender non-binary (not entirely/exclusively male or female) since age 5."
^

• and so it begins.

Lord help us keep these clinicians away from our families. Puberty is a scary thing, but this line of thinking is essentially redefining it as optional.

jme.bmj.com/content/early/2020/07/24/medethics-2019-106012

Thanks, Softlysoftly123!

don't think anyone knows NearlyGranny because pretty much every child that takes blockers goes onto cross sex hormones. Which is why the 'it's just a pause' argument is so disingenuous. Once you're on blockers, you are on an irreversible pathway to transitioning

YY. Which wasn't the case before puberty blockers and "social transitioning". For most of these children it was a phase they grew out of by adulthood.

I don't get this. Would the blockers stop all development?

No one really knows nevernotstruggling. That includes the endocrinologists giving them to children. Which means that the children are being used as guinea pigs. But that's not the real scandal. The real scandal is that everyone knows about this mess but just about everyone is too frightened to ask "Should we be doing this?"

Yeh but what does that look like? Does it mean no secondary sex characteristics but the kid gets taller etc? Does it stunt growth of everything?

Cardiovascular problems are well documented as a side effect of taking Lupron, the worst being congestive heart failure in 1% of patients. Now that can be considered an acceptable risk in the original patient group - men with prostate cancer, for whom Lupron offers a life-saving treatment.

But for the rest? Nothing short of a life-threatening condition should ever cause this to be described.

10 to 29% of patients develop depression.

Bone density in fully one third of the women studied in one project did not return to normal after treatment was stopped.

Side effects include:

tingling, itching, headache and migraine, dizziness, severe joint pain, difficulty breathing, chest pain, nausea, depression, emotional instability, dimness of vision, fainting, weakness, amnesia, hypertension, muscular pain, bone pain, nausea/vomiting, asthma, abdominal pain, insomnia, chronic enlargement of the thyroid, liver function abnormality, vision abnormality, and anxiety, and others.

And others! Including death!

I mean this is seriously fucking dangerous stuff. For 22 years the FDA has known about damaging side effects far beyond those admitted to by the manufacturer. And yet they're doing nothing.

They've known that two of the studies submitted in evidence to get FDA approval falsified 80% of patient data.

And yet the drug has gone on to be prescribed for ever more off-label uses. Now including longterm use in children.

Many of these side effects btw set in after the first use and persist for more than five years after treatment stops.

Anyone who writes an ethical paper considering longterm use of puberty suppressants without exploring these extremely serious safety concerns hasn't done the subject justice.

For anyone who wants to find out more,here's an article exploring the history of problems with Lupron from 2008. 2008! And we know it hasn't gotten any better.

There are only a handful of comparators. For instance this adult never went thru puberty because of the rare Kallmann syndrome m.youtube.com/watch?v=eitQYgCqA-0 In his case it seems that because the final stage of puberty never closed the growth plates in his bones, he just kept growing. He is taller than he would have been if puberty had happened naturally.
For these Phoenixes, there is no data.

@OneEpisode

There are only a handful of comparators. For instance this adult never went thru puberty because of the rare Kallmann syndrome m.youtube.com/watch?v=eitQYgCqA-0 In his case it seems that because the final stage of puberty never closed the growth plates in his bones, he just kept growing. He is taller than he would have been if puberty had happened naturally. For these Phoenixes, there is no data.

In some boys whose height is predicted to be way above average, testosterone is prescribed to stop the growth. Which is also not without side effects. The last time I looked into all this puberty suppression stuff, I came across a forum where these patients discussed the pros and cons of stunting their growth vs testosterone side effects. It seems we cannot yet interfere with the human endocrine system with the finesse required to achieve perfect outcomes.

All we can do is an honest, transparent cost-benefit analysis. And that is sorely needed for puberty blockers used for children who identify as trans.

Hi Charley, thank you. I wrote my post because I hadn’t seen your better one at 10pm, only an answered question from 9:25...
A NICE review would be ideal..

A fair amount is known about what happens to boys who don't go through puberty because of the castrati - boys who were castrated before puberty to preserve their singing voices.

Not going through puberty meant that they grew very tall, and they also often suffered from osteoporosis and curvature of the spine.

We don't know what happens to girls who don't go through puberty, because that 'experiment' is only just beginning.

Incredibly dystopian.

The UK seems to be on-trend towards stopping this but America is going full Dr Frankenstein on younger and younger children, for anyone with the $$$.

There's a researcher in Scotland who has looked at the effects on sheep brains, as apparently sheep brains are the closest in terms of organisation / puberty and various things to humans.

The effects aren't minimal and he's also looked at how there are differences in terms of impact on males and females, with (as usual) still some more research on females to be done.

Something horrifying just occurred to me about the Tavistock GIDS puberty blockers experiment.

We know 50% of children referred there start blockers. We know that virtually ALL of those who start blockers progress onto cross-sex hormones. None desist. GIDS have admitted that.

But, we also know that GIDS does not treat anyone over the age of 17, and I think 17 (and 16?) year olds can push for referral straight to the adult clinic waiting list.

I assume the adult clinic does not give puberty blockers as a treatment option, for the obvious reason that their patients would (normally) be passed puberty. Their treatment options are, I assume, cross-sex hormones and surgery.

So that suggests to me that children who have had their puberty blockers don't really have any choice but to have either cross-sex hormones or/and surgery. If blockers are not to be prescribed for adults, then the children (with impaired cognitive function) would be given the choice of cross-sex hormones/surgery or nothing (ie desistance) surely? And desisting won't feel like an option to someone in a suspended state of child-ness.

If I'm wrong on that, then the only other option is that there are ALREADY adults in the UK who are still on blockers.

Someone tell me I'm wrong.

Because the only other option is desisting (which GIDS say none do), or hormones and surgery. And if hormones and surgery are the only options given to puberty blocked "adults" then no wonder so many young women are finding themselves post-surgery and wondering how the fuck they got there.

It does definitely seem like a bit of a conveyor belt.

The UK seems to be on-trend towards stopping this but America is going full Dr Frankenstein on younger and younger children, for anyone with the $$$.

Yup. And I'm sure some parents in the FB group discussed in this thread by 4th Wave Now would love to have a Peter Pan child to "complete the set", as one of them put it:

mobile.twitter.com/4th_WaveNow/status/1203412783066501120

"THREAD: Families with multiple trans kids.

New leaked post (dated 4 days ago) from the affirming-parent Facebook group. Contrary to the original poster's conjecture ("rare breed"), a whole slew have 2, 3 or more trans kids."

I assume the adult clinic does not give puberty blockers as a treatment option, for the obvious reason that their patients would (normally) be passed puberty. Their treatment options are, I assume, cross-sex hormones and surgery.

Puberty blockers, also called hormone blockers, are also necessary for adults who transition if they haven't had their sexual organs surgically removed, in order to stop them producing their natural sex hormones.

Someone should tell these people that children are not assigned male or female at birth - sex is determined at conception.

@OldCrone

I assume the adult clinic does not give puberty blockers as a treatment option, for the obvious reason that their patients would (normally) be passed puberty. Their treatment options are, I assume, cross-sex hormones and surgery.

Puberty blockers, also called hormone blockers, are also necessary for adults who transition if they haven't had their sexual organs surgically removed, in order to stop them producing their natural sex hormones.

I read up on this a while ago. Adults who have blockers with cross sex hormones are rarely female. Testosterone does a lot to female bodies so it’s not usual to continue to block puberty. It is usual to continue to take blockers if male and still have your testes because male puberty will kick in and bring the facial and body changes with it.

My own theory is this difference is why it is rare for males to detransition and why we are seeing an increase in female detransitioners. The girls brains go through puberty even with testosterone, the boys brains are puberty blocked.

Its scary how much that mirrors Athlete A/Larry Nassar.

It's hard to credit that we all live in a society that permits, encourages and celebrates maiming children, though of course it has happened and still happens elsewhere - foot-binding, FGM ..... It's even harder to credit that anyone speaking out even to question this goes straight to the pillory, potentially losing their career and reputation.

We are going to be rudely awoken from our woke state by a landslide of grief, fury and lengthy, expensive litigation.

As a mother who has had her 21 yo turn on her and demand "Why did you let me DO that?" (at the adult age of 19!) I can see it shambling over the hill out of the mist.

medicalxpress.com/news/2019-08-transgender-women-case-sperm-production.amp

This is interesting as it discusses two people who stopped different drugs to try to achieve stored sperm for fertility preservation.

I can’t follow the logic that results in the conclusion that a non-binary identity = pre-pubertal body. I can understand that it could mean an adult body with a combination of male and female characteristics, or androgynous adult female body with say a mastectomy and hysterectomy or ovary removal or a male body with surgery to create an androgynous look like facial changes, removal of male pattern body/facial hair and shaved Adam’s apple.

This is none of those. Long term puberty suppression with no cross sex hormones or surgery will result in a pre-pubertal brain and body with at least expected adult height if not taller. Pre-pubertal bodies are not “genderless” or sexless, they are children’s bodies which are male or female. Phoenix wants a female child’s body forever. Is that gender dysphoria or is it fear of what comes with an adult body?

BaseDrops

Excellent point well made.

*BaseDrops” I only read the article you linked, so I don’t know how long these were on meds, and how long they were off meds, but one of the two produced viable sperm?

And right at the end the transition supportive doctor: "Right now, there's not much information available about fertility preservation for transgender patients,"

Valli-Pulaski said. "If you have any data, it's important to share so that patients, researchers and clinicians can learn from it."

?????? stable door ?????

One of the patients who elected to preserve their sperm after beginning therapy had been taking the drug Lupron—a sex hormone blocker that halts puberty when taken in adolescence—for six months. She elected to stop taking Lupron to attempt sperm cryopreservation. successful after 5 months.

The other was not successful after 4 months.
This patient had been taking estradiol and spironolactone for more than two years. Four months after stopping treatment, she was still unable to produce viable sperm, and at that point, she decided to stop trying for fertility preservation and proceeded with gender reassignment surgery.