It gets worse - a new, fresh hell

[WootMoggie]

Medical paper in which it is argued that non-binary children should be given puberty blockers FOR LIFE
^
"In this article, we analyse the novel case of Phoenix, a non-binary adult requesting ongoing puberty suppression (OPS) to permanently prevent the development of secondary sex characteristics, as a way of affirming their gender identity. We argue that (1) the aim of OPS is consistent with the proper goals of medicine to promote well-being, and therefore could ethically be offered to non-binary adults in principle;"

"Phoenix, 18, was assigned female at birth but has identified as gender non-binary (not entirely/exclusively male or female) since age 5."
^

• and so it begins.

Lord help us keep these clinicians away from our families. Puberty is a scary thing, but this line of thinking is essentially redefining it as optional.

jme.bmj.com/content/early/2020/07/24/medethics-2019-106012

Yes and "Pheonix" is a composite example of such children, but so far they haven't been given this treatment just because they wanted it, because of the obvious harms it would cause.

This paper is unbelievably horrible. It acknowledges the issues with bone density, cognitive impairment, impairment of sexual functioning and likely pain during intercourse that are caused by puberty blockers, and then says that all of these issues are outweighed by Pheonix's distress at "not looking non-binary."

It also says "Pheonix's child like body might make it difficult for them to find sexual partners" and doesn't explore the question of what sexual partners they might find.

Wow. Terrifying. These people need to be kept away from making policy involving children.

Humbert Humbert?

I mean it’s the understatement of the year isn’t it? Any adult with any integrity will find it off putting, any adult who doesn’t should probably be in prison. And “Phoenix” can consent to this? A lifetime of this?

I would never stand on the same side of the debate as this woman, due to her views on what I consider to be child abuse. And I would never disagree with a woman who was trying to uphold child safeguarding, because she had a strong jaw or deep voice etc My point @LittleCabbage, was that you did double think it, even if only for a minute or two. That probably isn't something you would have done a year or so ago, maybe not even a couple of months ago!

That is indicative of the damage TRAs are doing to us. I caught myself doing it a couple of months ago and it wasn't at all pleasant to consider.

I don't want to be changed by all of the TRA crap. I can debate and be informed. I don't want to become suspicious, unpleasant!

This is the worst kind of 'medical ethics'. It's a kind of job creation, coming up with contrary opinions and giving them an academic gloss.

Based on previous history, I suspect at least one of those authors of quite enjoying coming out with deliberately controversial ethical opinions and the subsequent attention.

The same authors published a similar article in Pediatrics earlier this year.

pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/145/2/e20191606?hwoasp=authn%3A1595931647%3A68176746%3A25455286%3A0%3A0%3ARfAqIhL6aHbAnLIGPq5rsw%3D%3D

You probably won’t be able to read the full paper, but this is about a 15 year old male.

It states:

In this Ethics Rounds, we present a case that combines features of several real cases that raised issues about prolonged pubertal suppression for a patient with a nonbinary gender.

Again, from Melbourne. This is happening.

And can people please stop derailing into arguments about who said what about the authors? This is kids being ruined under our noses, it’s a bit more important.

I would come to the conclusion that the hypothetical Phoenix had suffered severe emotional trauma, perhaps witnessing domestic/sexual abuse as a young child which has caused a fear of becoming a woman.

Any dr who thinks the solution should be to keep Phoenix a perpetual child is sick in the fucking head.

@CuriousaboutSamphire I do take your point, and do not wish to fall out with people who have the same motivations as me.

And can people please stop derailing into arguments about who said what about the authors? This is kids being ruined under our noses, it’s a bit more important. That was my point! And yes, it is happening, it is appalling and here will be some fucking awful results for those kids.

How can we stop it?

I wonder who is funding her research and why?
Money would be better spent on the psychosocial or neurological causes of gender dysphoria

This is happening.

It's not happening yet, that's a hypothetical ethics consultation about a real case. But it's bad enough that the groundwork is being laid.

Also note in that paper Notini is proposing a completely new untested experimental treatment to suppress puberty symptoms. So even if the medical evidence mounts up that the use of puberty blockers on trans-identified children is unsafe, to the point that even "ethicists" of Notini's calibre will find it hard to rationalise their use, there's a Plan B in the works.

It must be happening! Otherwise they wouldn’t have the real case information on which they're basing the hypothetical ethics cases!

It’s just a question of whether they’re getting the blocker continued through the public clinic or through someone else. I will bet my house that there is at least one active patient in Melbourne who is >18 and still on blockers and nothing else.

Flapjak AUD 5,200 per year per NB. £2,884. Each. Ongoing.

I really hope that "Phoenix" was a made up person and not a case study

Are they really advocating a generation of Peter Pans?

Why can't we just accept the sex we are born as, and work to junk the whole concept of gender? We are people first, men or women second.

Even in 'Gender speak' it doesn't make sense.
Non binary is not meant to be without sexuality that is asexual.
You are taking away their sexuality by taking away their puberty.

It's an incredibly coercive and heavy-handed solution to shoehorn someone into a medicalised non-binary box that doesn't really exist.

There will probably also be parents who support long-term use of puberty blockers, as they consider them preferable to cross-sex hormones as puberty blockers were claimed to be "fully reversible".

And that's before we even think about the parents such as the parent of a young female GIDS patient where the clinician said in hindsight the father was a pedophile who was sexually abusing the girl and pushing for blockers.

It's a disgrace to the concept of medicine. First do no harm.

They are essentially arguing for the drug equivalent of chopping a boy's balls off or cutting out a girl's ovaries.

Apply the magic trans teflon coating et voila! Damage by doctor rebranded as choosy choice.

If this means that the child doesn't undergo the brain development associated with puberty you can add a form of lobotomy to that.

Indeed nauticant

Yes calll it's complete conflation of asexuality with sex stereotyping. It's like someone complaining their shoes don't fit their feet so you chop their legs off.

It's an interesting sort of person that thinks children should be 'free' to never develop into adults.

I find anyone believing that puberty blockers are reversible or are just pausing puberty incredibly gullible. Do they really think that if a 12 year old started taking them, and at the age of 18 they stopped, then a "normal" puberty would kick in? Or stopped at 25, then suddenly a girl would grow breasts, brain would develop, add on several inches in height etc. Really?

I don't know at what age in a teenager's life you would medically say "that boat has sailed" if you are on puberty blockers, and I'm guessing it is dependent on the individual's stage of development. But the idea that you can go on them, then stop and hey presto all returns to as it was or would have been is barking mad.

When I read stuff like this I wonder if in the future there could be entirely new conditions that will "require" puberty blocking treatments. I mean non-binary (as we know it today) did not even exist 15 years ago and now it exists as a condition that may or may not need treatment. What if young people start to focus on adulthood itself as the problem and start to develop severe distress at the prospect of any puberty. If it is considered to be ethically OK for children to halt puberty for reasons of being the "wrong gender" then why not halt puberty for other reasons if such things cause distress (anorexia might fall into this category).

Or, Signalbox, the parents.

We know from Tavistock quotes that for some parents it seems to be about "transing away the gay" and my view on some of the YouTube stories is that - for some parents - it's about them always wanting a child of the opposite sex and having the chance to do so after-the-fact.

Most parents feel a deep sadness at some point at watching childhood eventually slip away from their kids.

For those who suffer this at pathological levels, they might grab at this as a chance to keep their children as children, forever, as a side-effect of being held up as an example of being a lovely "affirming" parent.

It's a horrible thought, but...

Notini's research seems to focus heavily on the bodily autonomy of children and whether parents have the rights to either give them surgery before they are able to consent or equally to stop them should they wish to pursue medical treatment.

Lauren presented at the Australian version of WPATH recently and has also written about IVG - in vitro gametogenesis - a reproductive technique in mice wherein genetic material from more than two donors can be used to create embryos. Apparently very appealing to same sex male couples but obviously they would have to use a surrogate (the ethics of renting a woman's uterus don't appear to be considered).

This is all part of queer culture.

Phoenix’s new doctor ... wonders if Phoenix has underlying psychological issues about not wanting to grow up.

Ya think?!!!!

Don’t want to derail but this reminded me of Ashley X. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Treatment
I’m the parent of a disabled child and it can be so hard. I can see how parents could make decisions that seem extreme to people from the outside.