14 year old son telling me that men have it much harder than women...

[mawbroon]

I know this has been done before, but I can't find anything when I search.
Chatting with my 14 yo earlier and he has some very strange ideas about feminism and what it means.

Can anyone point me in the direction of any articles/videos to help him understand what feminism is, and why we need it?

I put across a few brief points, but of course, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ANYTHING 😂😂

Lots of good ideas here.
Fwiw I think it's great you're having these conversations with him. The fact that he is still listening to your views (even if disagreeing) shows he's open to debate. He just needs to see a wider view and some more perspectives.

Look at what he is telling you.
''men have it much harder than women''
''she should just have given him her number instead of making him feel bad''

He is using language that suggests victimhood and entitlement, and thats a bad cobination.
Entitled men make demands and feel sad or angry that women won't comply. They end up feeling angry and resentful towards women. This is not a healthy mindset for a relationship.

Look at this graphic from the Freedom Program;
freedomprogramme.co.uk/docs/dominator-mr-right.pdf

Instead of getting into debates with him, ask him what kind of relationships he wants with women.
Does he see himself making long term friendships with the girls he goes to school with? Does he expect those friendships to continue after they start having relationships, or marry, or have children?
How does he see marriage? Does he want to marry? Does he want to have children ?

Make him start to visualise himself in different scenarios and start thinking in a more mature way, because social media wont encourage him to do that.

This is the research regarding false accusations of rape vs male rape. A pp mentioned it, it's statistically much more likely for a man to be raped than to be falsely accused of rape www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-men-are-more-likely-to-be-raped-than-be-falsely-accused-of-rape

I'd interrogate this a little further - not even as a male/female thing, but the idea that it makes sense or is kind to give someone your number when you aren't interested.

I think this is a common idea with kids that age, in fact I remember discussing it with friends in various ways.

A lot of it came from the fact that none of us girls were very confident, and the boys weren't either and we knew it. The idea of actially asking someone for a number seemed scary as heck and telling them they couldn't have it seemed scary and also rather mean, because that's the emotional space we were in.

A boy in my class had a crush on me the year I was 14 and told me by putting a note in my locker, because face to face was seen as too confrontational, too much pressure. For him, but also for me.

A lot of this stuff is maturity and kids will grow out of it as they become more insightful and emotionally resilient. Which doesn't mean, don't talk about it, but it doesn't need to be some sort of campaign.

Tell him - before I took a career break (pregnancy etc) I was earning (2004) 3 times what I actually earn now (and no benefits). This is not unusual.

@BaseDrops

Ask him if he should give his number to a gay man who is hitting on him to avoid hurting his feelings. Ask him why the woman’s right to her privacy is less important than a man’s ego. Why is better for the woman to lie and give the man hope than be honest?

Does he want women to lie to him about anything that might hurt his feelings? How is he going to know if they are actually interested in him or consenting to anything?

Should he go on pity dates with girls he doesn’t like? Why not? Are their feelings more important than his?

I think these are good questions to ask.

I find your sons views deeply troubling and think you are right to be concerned.

OP I don't know if you mentioned this but is his Dad around, and a positive influence? If so I would be expecting him to have some input here, it's true that as women we can't easily imagine the pressures on teenage boys (of course! just as men can't easily imagine what WE go through)
If not I would be lining up as many positive male role models as I could. And if needed, I'd be saying 'what do you think X would do in that situation? Can you imagine Y talking to a woman like that?' etc
I'd avoid arguing directly with him, tempting as it is. I'd be doing my special raised eyebrow and saying 'really?' then changing the subject.
Later, I'd engineer a situation where I could provide contrary evidence.
Soap operas I always found were good opportunities for discussion. Watch telly with him and say....poor so and so, she must have been really scared/that's not fair is it/why do you think he said that etc etc

OP does he understand the difference between Black lives matter and the stupid All lives matter argument? This may be a good comparison a d to broaden up the subject into having a look at humanism and the need for feminism.

Definitely keep an eye as to what he is watching and what he is being told by friends. A lot of so called woke youth tends to be brainwashed youth. You also need to inform yourself. You admit to not knowing much. That right there is the problem, as these things should be forged from a young age. What about his father? What does he hear from him and other family?

You need to see what he’s looking at online. The whole Incel/MGTOW shite is easy to get sucked into when you’re an impressionable 14 year old.

Technically he's not an adult. However hes not really 'just a child at 14'is he? Hes old enough to date and could potentially have sex even if it's not of legal age.
I'd be really concerned about these attitudes. I wonder if the posters with 'hes a child' responses, have sons rather than daughters.
I have two girls and attitudes like this are frightening. Get him told FFS! I also wish schools would do a lot more educating around these types of attitudes and beliefs.

I agrte that the giving a number out might just be teenager type thinking that you are being kind . I agree with a PP about asking him if he would give his number to a gay boy asking for it. ( Assuming he is not gay)

If he says yes, ask him what he would do when the boy calls. How far would he go in being kind. ? Help him understand that setting appropriate boundaries for himself is not being unkind to the other person and the same applies to girls/ women.

• or even if he is gay.

Q

@IdblowJonSnow

Technically he's not an adult. However hes not really 'just a child at 14'is he? Hes old enough to date and could potentially have sex even if it's not of legal age. I'd be really concerned about these attitudes. I wonder if the posters with 'hes a child' responses, have sons rather than daughters. I have two girls and attitudes like this are frightening. Get him told FFS! I also wish schools would do a lot more educating around these types of attitudes and beliefs.

He's not just technically not an adult, he isn't an adult. And this tendency of framing children as young adults informs much of the queer culture thinking that is currently dismantling the frameworks that safeguard our children.

If a 14 year old boy is basically an adult in this way of thinking, then so is a 14 year old girl. And that has consequences. Like queer theory informed sex ed that teaches that age group (and younger) to view seriously harmful sexual practices as standard. Or in articles aimed at young teen girls teaching them they not to say no to painful sex but to use more lube.

We can be concerned about a child's misguided ideas about what it means to be kind without casting them as (young) adults who should know better.

We can teach children of both sexes about healthy boundaries - both in asserting and in respecting them - without framing their lack of understanding in such a hostile manner.

"DS is of the opinion that she should just have given him her number instead of making him feel bad

What else does he think women should do to stop men feeling bad? Sleep with them?"

I think some of this fuzziness about "people should be nice" is derived from a rather unnuanced way in which very young children are socialised, sometimes with their personal boundaries ignored or misunderstood.

I have heard small children being told they have to share everything they own and they have to play with every other child who wants to. Actually, as adults, we don't live like that. We understand perfectly well that being polite, inclusive, and supportive to everyone we work with (for instance) is completely different from inviting some annoying person we have just met on a special camping trip with best friends and shared tents.
Similarly, when someone comes to my house and picks up a book I've left on the coffee table, I say "oh yes, do take a look, it's very interesting"; but if someone started trying on my clothes or asked to drive my car to the shops I would think they were very fucking weird and pretty outrageous.

boys need to get that just because we told all the three year olds "be nice! Don't hurt people's feelings!" girls are still entitled to maintain their boundaries

I agree that you should ask him if he would give his number to a gay boy/man who was asking for it. Even if he’s gay himself, if this person was someone he was definitely not attracted to the scenario still works.

Also, to reflect the actual power imbalance and dynamic here, you need to add in that the boy/man is considerably physically stronger than him, and has higher social standing than he does, and once he has his number will almost certainly try to coerce him into dating and sex.

Would he be happy to give this hypothetical person his number so as not to hurt his feelings? If not, why not? What’s the difference between him and the woman in the debate you watched?

That might open up some interesting insights for him.

At 14 yrs old he is old enough to learn the deeper side of feminists issues. I don't disagree that men have it difficult in other areas of life like toxic masculinity but he needs to learn that this doesn't discount the disadvantages and rights of women to set their boundaries.

Being nice to placate and make them feel better is dangerous. Women can play nice to get of dangerous/uncomfortable situations and or playing nice inevitably invites danger as they can't get away otherwise, that is speaking from personal experience but relatively unscathed. What's the phrase? Men are scared women will laugh at them and women are scared men will kill them. Too simplistic on its own but what is not said is the wider issues of society that need to be understood.

My dd is young but has been hounded by another boy at school for over a year to be his gf, she plays nice while not agreeing but he takes advantage of her being nice and not firmly setting boundaries leading to her distress and misery. School don't see the bigger issue here so I am biting my nails with worry for her in future.

My ds (now nearly 16) definitely went through this phase of male entitlement/resentment of females at age 14.

I used to pull him up on it constantly: for example, I'd ask him to clear the table/walk the dog/get me something from the shop & he'd instantly be looking round for a younger sister to pass the chore onto; I'd sharply tell him that he was being a sexist git expecting to delegate boring tasks to the nearest female.

It wasn't particularly constructive, as ds believed that sure, he was being lazy & rude, but in his head he would have been just as much of an arse if he'd had a younger brother to harass into doing stuff!

So as far as he was concerned it was a case of 'mum ALWAYS sticks up for the girls, mum is really the sexist one, woe is me, I'm so persecuted for being a boy.'

Once we'd talked through it, & broken that cycle, he did concede that to an extent his sense of entitlement was probably down to us living in a culture (not U.K.) where boys are treated like superior beings to their sisters.

& I had to admit I did jump on him more than if dd1 was being horrid to dd2, because I subconsciously reacted 'Ah! Ds is pushing younger sisters around because male socialisation! Stamp on that!' & that he also had a tiny bit of a point...

So I wonder - what is your household like in terms of males/females? My ds found being the only male from age 10 onwards quite challenging, & whilst it did make him behave like a dick on occasion, he did feel that he couldn't win/was regarded with continual suspicion/was held to higher standards etc.

He's delightful now btw! I think being ghastly is also just part of the 14yo human condition.

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

I agree that you should ask him if he would give his number to a gay boy/man who was asking for it. Even if he’s gay himself, if this person was someone he was definitely not attracted to the scenario still works.

Also, to reflect the actual power imbalance and dynamic here, you need to add in that the boy/man is considerably physically stronger than him, and has higher social standing than he does, and once he has his number will almost certainly try to coerce him into dating and sex.

Would he be happy to give this hypothetical person his number so as not to hurt his feelings? If not, why not? What’s the difference between him and the woman in the debate you watched?

That might open up some interesting insights for him.

This is a really good analogy I'll be using in future, thank you!

At 14, my DS was a shrimp with a treble voice, so that may be colouring my view of what counts as a child.

Fourteen year olds are children in the sense that they don't have adult cognition or adult experiences, and they are still trying to form their own views on many things.

It's unreasonable to expect them to think as adults.

I would also say that it is important to give them some mental space to develop their own views without bombing them with your own. Not that anyone should hide their own views, but as an adult and a parent it's important to let kids work things through, and not feel like they need to take your viewpoint or you will mentally beat them into submission.

He's 14. Of course he has some wacky ideas and knows better than you. It comes with the territory.

I remember going through a Tory phase when I was a teenager, because my parents were staunchly labour and really rammed it down my throat. They never allowed any room for my views, they just knew that what they thought was right and everything else was wrong. So I was rebelling. By the time I was old enough to vote i had long forgotten about the whole thing and ended up joining the Green party.

I think it's good to challenge him on his views but make sure you are doing so with valid points and well reasoned arguments. Don't just speak to him as if what he thinks is wrong or stupid with no factual basis. That will backfire. He is allowed to hold his own views and doesn't have to think the same things as you. Tread carefully.

I wouldn't start with the pay gap because it only turns in favour of men around age 40 - that's a long way away for a 14yo! Plus, with the current trajectory it could well be in favour of women in the not too distant future.

The phone stuff is likely just adolescent thinking from someone who doesn't understand these dynamics, being too young to have a proper girlfriend yet. I wouldn't get into a war of stats as he'll probably just researching it more. I think a lot of the bitter feminism stuff (obv not all of it) probably isn't a particularly good influence on young people either tbh.

I'd just let it pass. He'll get distracted by something else soon.

Get a copy of Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez. I put it where DH would keep picking it up to flick through. He is shocked by what he's reading. It's a great book.