14 year old son telling me that men have it much harder than women...

[mawbroon]

I know this has been done before, but I can't find anything when I search.
Chatting with my 14 yo earlier and he has some very strange ideas about feminism and what it means.

Can anyone point me in the direction of any articles/videos to help him understand what feminism is, and why we need it?

I put across a few brief points, but of course, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ANYTHING 😂😂

Is this coming from a personal level of pissed-off-ness because Evie in 9C told him he has Cheesy Wotsit breath, or is it a more general grumble?

OP, here's a good video about consent that he/you might have seen before about consent. It's a good starting point for a discussion.

The way I have handled it with my slighter younger son is to discuss things as they arise eg the other day he heard me talking to DP about women's spaces and wanted to know what I meant by it so we had a discussion about human rights and some groups have additional protected rights etc. My son has ASC but with lots of analogies relating to his own experiences and "how would you feel if..." he grasped the points.

I think lots of teen boys have this phase - they get lots wrong. This is probably as much about his underlying fears. Girls are more mature, have tighter friendship groups and are often more respected by school staff. Lots of boys feel that the girls have the power over them when it comes to dating and although non of the above is necessarily true you probably just have a boy worried about puberty, girls, rejection, peer relationships, GCSEs and the future. I wouldn’t presume he is developing into a men’s rights activist but rather that he is struggling to reconcile how he feels with the actual evidence.

I have a 14 yr old. Atm i can't win.

Expectations of males are still far more constrained than of those for women in recent times; boys and men are still expected to conform to a narrower set of behaviours and expressions. A lot more pressure on males to be earning a 'proper' living etc; to have found a trade or a profession etc.

Not all masculinity is toxic, as some would suggest, and if you have sons you have to be sensitive to and aware of the issues they face as boys in our society.

OP, he is not a child, he is an impressionable teenager who could have been getting his values warped by any number of misogynist and dangerous men’s rights websites.
Rather than telling a concerned doctor and mother to wobble her head, you would be better advised to monitor your son’s influences and moderate them while you still can. Teenage boys are exposed to a lot of toxic patriarchal material online, not to mention violent porn. Your own son is not immune, and it’s at the very least concerning that he parrots male grudges.

Does he help you with chores around the house and with the cooking?
While he's helping you with the cooking keep saying about how hard it's been working, running the house and being a mother. I'm sure you have lots of examples of when you were exhausted but had to keep going. Perhaps then he'll start to realise men don't have it that bad.
Also then he'll make a lovely appreciative husband in the future (fingers crossed)

Does he help you with chores around the house and with the cooking? While he's helping you with the cooking keep saying about how hard it's been working, running the house and being a mother. I'm sure you have lots of examples of when you were exhausted but had to keep going. Perhaps then he'll start to realise men don't have it that bad. Also then he'll make a lovely appreciative husband in the future (fingers crossed) smile

Yes, of course, but as a mother of boys you need also to have some a insight and sensitivity to the pressures and expectations that boys face too.

Yes, of course, but as a mother of boys you need also to have some a insight and sensitivity to the pressures and expectations that boys face too

Yes, but it seems that the expectation he has is that women and girls are things to be owned, and they should do what he wants if he cries

At this age boys need men to look to for answers as they pull away from their mothers.
I’d buy him both Grayson Perry’s book and Robert Webb’s. They’re called I think “the descent of man” and “how not to be a boy” or similar.

@mawbroon

*noble* he definitely understands about consent when it comes to sex. I've told him he should always assume it's no unless there has been enthusiastic consent. But he seemed more concerned about the made up statistics around false rape accusations and how it can ruin a man's life. Yes, this is true, of course it is, but he wasn't having it when I explained how few rape cases make it to court and the victim has all manner of personal stuff dragged up and then the conviction rates are tiny.

I had an adult male friend who tried the "false accusations ruin lives" line, and what brought him round was me pointing out that statistically he was more likely to be raped by another man than he was to be falsely accused of rape by a woman.

He's 14. Not a young man. Certainly not an MRA who needs to be shamed and horrified into seeing the light. (Not a winning strategy in my view, even for adults.)

I have a 13 year-old and like his brothers, I have given him safeguarding advice without describing in horrific detail what bad people might want to do to children. I am certainly using the same age appropriate way to tell him about feminism and why we need it.

My middle one came out with this stuff, at around 14 or 15, after watching the likes of Jordan Peterson on YouTube. I turned that around by having calm, friendly and age appropriate conversations about feminism. As well as about poverty, disability, race and all of the other issues that might result in men or women being disadvantaged in our society.

That's because feminism doesn't exist in a vacuum, which is why children should learn not just about the reason it exists and what it does but also that it sits alongside a number of other civil rights movements. And why we need them and what they do.

One reason for that of course is that many who ridicule or disdain feminism point to men disadvantaged because of poverty or race or disability and use that to argue against the need for feminism.

Once children understand that there are different reasons why men might be disadvantaged, that MRA tactic is far less effective.

They should also learn that some may chose to focus on one movement and that that is entirely their choice, to counteract the argument that feminism should be about equality for everyone.

Btw, I only started talking to my oldest about this without censoring myself when he was 20, including frank and sometimes uncomfortable conversations about porn, prostitution, male violence and the patriarchy. I am glad we can talk about this in an open and honest way, because he is experiencing and observing many things he is trying to understand. By providing a feminist perspective I can help make sense of some behaviours and events he is struggling with.

That would not be happening had I gone in guns blazing at age 14 as some PP have suggested.

I think from the point of view of a teenage boy, life can look a bit shit. When ds2 was that age, he saw that life in school was much easier for girls. He was constantly in trouble - as he saw it the girls got away with much more. The did better at school, more got into university, they found it easier to get part time jobs, their friendship groups appeared (from the outside) to be more supportive. He could see lots on the news about women power; there was a lot of talk about getting more girls into STEM, extra money going into girls' sport, more visible effort seemingly going into things for girls generally.

It's only now he's in his twenties he sees why extra effort goes into womens' rights, and he now sees the disadvantages of being female - pregnancy, childcare etc, as well as the extreme misogyny. The NI rape case was a real eye-opener for him.

I think slow and careful explanation rather than going in too hard is much better. The best outcome is that they come to realise things themselves - though strategic nudging is always good.

Teenagers always think they (and by extension whatever group they are a part of) have it harder than anyone else .

I don't think you need to worry yet that he's going to grow up to be toxic or misogynistic so I wouldn't go in all guns blazing yet... Having said that, you could gently draw his attention to research on sexual harassment in schools and society, shockingly low rape prosecution and conviction rates and the pay and housework gender gaps.

Yes, but it seems that the expectation he has is that women and girls are things to be owned, and they should do what he wants if he cries

That's a harsh reading, and not how I read it. Boys have feelings and sensitivities too. There is still pressure on boys to do the pursuing and courting, and thereby risking rejection.

He will learn about good behaviour from observing you and your relationships with others, in the main.

Lots to think about here, thank you.

We chat about all sorts of things. He often seeks me out to show me stuff he's been watching and ask my opinion on it, whether it be music or memes or whatever. It was him that wanted me to watch the video I referred to in my OP and we chat a lot. I'll get him to watch the mask one with me and see how it goes!

He will hopefully mature with age, but point out the main facts:

66% of MPs are male
Out of 55 Prime Ministers, 2 have been women
Men earn on average 17% more than women
On average 2 women a week are killed through domestic violence
Point out all the atrocities in the world in recent years. How many have been caused by men? Women and children worldwide are collateral damage.

He is reading a few distorted facts designed to stir up misogyny and make men feel like the hard done by ones.

This has made me remember something I read a while back.

A boy came home and told his mum be asked out the girl he fancied and she said no.

The mum said you know what to do next.

He said yes, keep trying.

The mum said, no. She's said no and that's her answer. So move on.

That really took me aback and it shouldn't have. The idea that men and boys should keep trying to get what they want is a mainstay of a lot of the entertainment media we consume.

Of course the mum was right. I think it's powerful though. Made me think.

I remember reading that, Shiny.

Very important message to get across.

My poor DS has had to put up with me ranting at an episode of "The Next Step" (which he got unaccountably addicted to in a kind of "so bad it's good" sort of way).

Boy gets crush on girl. Boy's behaviour starts to verge on stalkerish - think asking out on date in public in such a way that it becomes really awkward to say no. Girl says no - admittedly in somewhat humiliating way. Rest of dance school takes boy's side ("but he was soooo romantic...", "I'd love to have someone ask me out like that", "Aww, why did you have to be so mean to him?", "Be kind...")

I had a full-on rant at the TV: "that's just so wrong, trying to guilt-trip the girl into going out with a bloke she doesn't want to, just because he's prepared to pester her and not take no for an answer."

... she should just have given him her number instead of making him feel bad...

I'd interrogate this a little further - not even as a male/female thing, but the idea that it makes sense or is kind to give someone your number when you aren't interested. What happens when he calls and she declines to go out with him? If he keeps calling and she blocks the number? Isn't it kinder to be honest up front and let the other person go meet someone else who would be mutually interested? (That already fits in with your comment that he understands enthusiastic consent - can apply to any voluntary social interaction, not just sex.)

14 is also possibly young enough that he doesn't grasp the tremendous differences in brute physical strength between adult men and women, even of similar size. If he's small/short/skinny/not athletic (or has male friends who are), he may still be seeing a world where some girls are stronger and more developed than some boys, and not understand how a woman would be afraid of giving a strange man her number and that he might be able to physically find her via the number and how that's typically a whole different level of risk than a man giving a strange woman his number. HavelockVetinari's point about the wildly disproportionate rate of criminal violence and sexual violence (1) by men and (2) against women is probably relevant here.

A couple of videos -

This is really quick (

If your DS is into gaming, @mawbroon you could try him on Scalzi's "Straight White Male is the lowest difficulty setting."
kotaku.com/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-ther-5910857

Op i would be concerned.. he doesnt sound like a very nice person :/ people saying he is just a child.. he is 14 and should know right from wrong by now. It is wrong to believe a woman should just do what a man says to make him happy..

You need to take this seriously because i would be disgusted if my son had those views....

... she should just have given him her number instead of making him feel bad...

With teenagers is often a good idea to use the scenario with people they know rather than a random man and woman.

I'd be asking if he thought you, his mum, should give your number to a random guy just because he asked? Or whether he a young boy, should have to give his number to someone because they asked?

...and when you did this with him as an example make sure the person asking is extremely unattractive in his opinion.