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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'Feelgood' drag film.

39 replies

onalongsabbatical · 25/07/2020 17:15

There's a review of a drag film on the Guardian, and because I'm feeling particularly bolshie today I just left the following comment;
Blackface - white people dressing black for 'entertainment'. Terrible.
Drag - men dressing like women (or thinking they are) for 'entertainment'. What a laugh!
Hate it. I'd like to see it treated exactly like blackface - as an unacceptably degrading parody.

www.theguardian.com/film/2020/jul/25/stage-mother-review-jacki-weaver-feelgood-drag-film-falls-flat#comments

If anyone wants to comment and join me - not many comments as yet.

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Cismyfatarse1 · 25/07/2020 17:29

I tried. Upvoted yours but mine wouldn't post. Not sure if it is because I have just joined.

Below if anyone wants to post / adapt.

Decades after the end of the black and white minstrels and the awful parodies of BAME people we still think it is hilarious to parody women. I get that it has its roots in gay culture. Bullfighting has its roots in Spanish culture - but it still hurts the bull. The women in these parodies (or ‘women’) are either obsessed with sex (the slut / whore) or washed up and old (the bitter old woman) or naive and youthful (the virgin). No one dresses up as a CEO or a Brain Surgeon.

How is this OK? How is it OK to ridicule women through grotesque stereotypes and vile humour?

onalongsabbatical · 25/07/2020 17:33

Great comment Cismyfatarse! May well be because you've only just joined, who knows?

Let's see how it goes and if the comments start to get longer I'll add yours later. But it might be a backwater - Guardian films sometimes is.

Thank you.

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BlueboxRedbox · 25/07/2020 17:46

I think your comment has been removed already by the Guardian moderators.

nitgel · 25/07/2020 17:49

Already deleted fgs

fuckinghellapeacock · 25/07/2020 17:53

Deleted! Mine was too. Misogynistic cunts.

felineflutter · 25/07/2020 18:17

Oh

onalongsabbatical · 25/07/2020 18:26

Fuck. Did you save yours fuckinghellapeacock? Post it here if you did.
I remember your peacock thread BTW - awesome!
Bastard Guardian bastard fucking delete culture I'm not having a good day. I used to give the bastard Guardian money, too.

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Bishybarnybee · 25/07/2020 18:33

There aren't any comments now...are you saying there were, some of them were anti- drag, so they deleted the lot? Wow.

Namechangetoavoidmra · 25/07/2020 18:44

There was a twitter thread this morning on this issue (not the film, but on how drag can be seen as insulting to women and black face is to black people). I’ve always shared the same distaste with drag (although rarely seen it articulated) but I was interested to see some comments in the twitter stream about how some black women really object to comparing it to black face, which made me want to think of an alternative way of expressing what it is about it that is offensive and misogynistic

twitter.com/jamesbarry1789/status/1286859288951115776?s=21

Namechangetoavoidmra · 25/07/2020 18:45

as blackface is to black people

onalongsabbatical · 25/07/2020 18:53

There were 4 comments - mine and peacock's and a couple of others not critical - I think they've just pulled all comments as too much trouble.

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Chiochan · 25/07/2020 18:59

The guardian is a discusting rag, dont even click on it anymore.

Coyoacan · 25/07/2020 19:35

black women really object to comparing it to black face

Yeap. Someone did make a good effort to explain it and, from what I understood, black face in the USA has some extremely nasty associations with lynchings and the kkk, not just tasteless stuff like Al Jolson or The Black and White Minstrels.

fuckinghellapeacock · 25/07/2020 19:59

I commented
"Why is dragface acceptable? Little Britain is taken off air for ridiculing trans women but women are fair game? How is this acceptable in 2020?"

Not v witty or clever but there you go :)

NotAGirl · 25/07/2020 20:48

I have always been uncomfortable with pantomime dames the nastiness and way they denigrate older women. I didn't have the words to articulate what I disliked about it and it seemed to be regarded as very much part of British culture.

I want to be sensitive to what black women say but It is very convenient for men that we can't compare womanface to blackface. It neutralises the revulsion we feel and controls our words again.

Justhadathought · 25/07/2020 21:33

As drag becomes more mainstream, this issue of its equivalence with blackface needs to be brought up, again and again. You can expect strong resistance, though. Many gay men are quite quick to forget their privileged position in the inter-sectionalist hierarchy, just as eagerly as they are to embrace trans rights at the expense of women.

I'm not into intersectionality, myself but what is sauce for the goose must be sauce for the gander.

Fffffs · 25/07/2020 21:48

Drag is a characture of the sex role stereotypes of slutty, stupid, and existing for men’s needs that women are socialised into performing to maintain the hierarchy of men’s dominance over us. This hierarchy and the male power over us and entitlement to our bodies is what leads to us being harmed daily, including being raped and murdered. Why is that less significant than black face being linked to kkk etc?

Is it because it just effects us women? Or because being honest about it would call out men?

GoshHashana · 26/07/2020 09:15

black women really object to comparing it to black face

I'm sorry but tough shit. There isn't just one voice in this debate. And that isn't even true. Not all black women object.

Namechangetoavoidmra · 26/07/2020 11:39

@GoshHashana well for a start if you look back to my original post I actually said some black women object. I did not say all; quote got trimmed it seems. But anyway.

I raised this as I thought it would be useful to have a discussion about whether the comparison (or rather: assertion of equivalence) was useful and valid, or if there might be alternative comparisons and/or equivalences which might be equally valid but potentially more powerful if they avoid alienating some black women and potentially others too. (For eg @fuckinghellapeacock made the alternative comparison with the Little Britain mocking Of transvestites. Personally I feel that is limited as it misses the systemic and historical nature of women’s oppression and the use and development of gender roles and stereotypes to do that - ie, I don’t really see transvestites as a oppressed and exploited class in the same way that women and black people obviously are).

One of the things I’m particularly conscious of here is how the TRAs have exploitatively hooked themselves onto the coat tails of the BLM movement. I don’t want feminism to fall into the same or similar trap. Idk if calling drag the same as blackface does that; I want to think about it and learn.

So first off I want to know more about the history of black face. Went here: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/news/blackface-history-racism-origins.
Unfortunately it doesnt let me cut and paste chunks of text, but certainly elements of black face in the US are strikingly similar to drag - The exaggerated features and dance moves, the “buffoonish” behaviour, the use of it to underline the performer’s superiority and otherness to the dehumanised people it is portraying (Very interesting to think that’s essentially what drag performers are doing there). So far, so similar to drag.

But there is an additional extreme violence associated with drag which I don’t think always carries over to an equivalence for the women’s movement (or at least doesn’t if we want the equivalence to be readily understood without the somewhat distracting need to preface it with an explanation of how patriarchy = systemic violence against women. Personally I can go there, but I think it would leave a lot of people behind - patriarchy has had centuries to normalise violence against women. Slavery and modern racism much less so).

According to the article black face gained a resurgence and peaked in popularity in the US in response to the demands from recently emancipated slaves for civil rights. It served to demonise black people as evil and deviant and so justify state violence against them. The most famous black face character Jim Crow even lent his name to the “Jim Crow” segregation laws which were only ended in the mid 60s and were used to control and suppress the supposedly dangerous and inferior blacks portrayed through blackface - which is where the KKK got in on the act too.

As I said, personally I can see the argument for equivalence - but it requires some work and steps. And I can also see why many people wouldn’t see an immediately parallel to lynchings in the American south and the treatment of women in western patriarchy in particular. Sure that might be because there’s a good few centuries have past since witches were burnt in Europe, and because people don’t immediately see the continuity between witch burning and, say, “honour” killings which are still a daily reality in the world (and because rape is viewed by many as violence against an individual, rather than something which is systemic to patriarchy). But that’s the point: if we’re looking for something to resonate quickly and win people over to our view, is the blackface comparison the best?

I can see why @Fffffsand @GoshHashana you see it as maybe a bit wet and self policing/censoring, but I guess it’s partly about tactics and pragmatism. I’m genuinely torn and interested in others’ views here.

onalongsabbatical · 26/07/2020 12:15

@Namechangetoavoidmra brilliant post, thank you. I used the blackface analogy because I wanted to get in a quick comment that had obvious punch to it, but I was uncomfortable using it and you've summed up and articulated pretty much exactly how I feel about it. I'm not sure I've got anything more to add yet but wanted to respond to your post because you've taken the trouble to really unpick the issue.

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onalongsabbatical · 26/07/2020 12:18

Bearing in mind that there will always be objections to how a thing is articulated, but I do think the blackface/drag analogy faces particular difficulties that are at least partially valid and likely to alienate rather than help.

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Fffffs · 26/07/2020 12:42

I don’t think there necessarily is ever exact equivalencies, that fit needs and purpose perfectly. I don’t think we need to bend over backwards to be super nice and accommodating to anyone we might possibly offend and silence a perfectly valid point in the process, that’s the kind of socialisation we need to step out of to be honest about what women experience.

I’m not sold that only comparisons of women murdered in the name of witch craft or honour killings are only ‘acceptable’ ones either. Why do plain old women killed by men not count? Do MoC being shot by police not count because that’s not kkk lynchings or slavery? Of course not, it’s part of the same problem of racism so it counts. The majority of women who are murdered are killed once leaving their partner- so daring to say no- and that’s the harm that drag’s performance of womanhood as being slutty and easy and to stupid to say no causes. It’s not the only cause but very clearly makes a joke of women’s sex role stereo socialisation and continues that same socialisation in the process. We aren’t murdered or raped because of individual circumstances, the violence we face is precisely because we are women and if that’s not easily grasped by the analogy then that’s a sign how extreme the misogyny we face is and the lack of understanding then needs challenged not accommodated by finding a more easy to grasp analogy. If people object to drag face then say women object to their use of class oppression and othering seeing as it was the Second Sex that brought these concepts mainstream to explain what women face centuries ago and they shouldn’t be appropriating our terminology for our experience. Doesn’t hold up? Of course not, because these concepts apply to racism too and experience of oppression isn’t ‘owned’ by any one group, and as drag face explains the point just fine we can use it. Women don’t need to be talked out of speaking up.

Namechangetoavoidmra · 26/07/2020 12:47

Thank you @onalongsabbatical. I’m really just thinking out loud. My instinct on this is similar to yours. I feel there is so much at stake here - we’re on the verge of losing the definition of female as a sex ffs - that tactics and pragmatism should take priority over philosophical purity, particularly when talking with non feminists. And sometimes in an argument, less is more, and showing is better than telling. So the comparisons with the transvestite in Little Britain, or of gay men in countless Bernard Manning style jokes, might be useful - esp if coupled with an explanation of how the systemic nature of women’s dehumanisation in patriarchy actually makes those comparisons really very tame. Then leave it to the person we’re trying to persuade to see the parallels with blackface. A conversation about that can then develop into a conversation about how it’s only due to the advances made by feminists (inc sex-based rights and spaces) that women in the west don’t live under the barbaric conditions suffered by women and girls in much of the rest of the world, which yes even now are very analogous to the Deep South at the time of Jim Crow.

Namechangetoavoidmra · 26/07/2020 13:01

@Fffffs I do see your point. I’m just worrying about tactics.

queenofknives · 26/07/2020 13:20

I can see the parallels/similarities between drag and blackface but I agree they have to be set out systematically rather than simply drawing an equivalence. They look the same on the surface, but are they the same thing really? I'm not sure. Are racism and misogyny the same thing at base? I'm not sure about that either. On one level, yes of course, the hatred of another based on an immutable characteristic is the basic definition of both things. But beyond that, socially and historically and personally I think they can operate in quite different ways. I'm not convinced how useful a parallel it is to draw.

I think also wrt drag, there is some drag that isn't misogynistic - it's more like playing a character that everyone knows isn't a woman, but a gay man pretending to be a woman, so rather than laughing at women, it's laughing at men and their insecurities and ideals and so on. It's levels of masks and disguises that can be artful, funny, and subversive. So I don't necessarily object to it on principle, as I would to blackface. I would say though, that I dislike intensely all the modern drag shows I've seen on television, and found them sexist and stupid. I guess I am thinking about the seedy gay bars of my youth, where drag queens seemed like wonderful characters messing around with gender stereotypes and making fun of themselves and each other. But whether that's because I'm overlooking the inherent misogyny in drag, I don't know. I guess I'm not convinced that drag is inherently misogynistic, but I definitely agree that it can be misogynistic and often is, especially in the mainstream popular culture.

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