'Feelgood' drag film.

[onalongsabbatical]

There's a review of a drag film on the Guardian, and because I'm feeling particularly bolshie today I just left the following comment;
Blackface - white people dressing black for 'entertainment'. Terrible.
Drag - men dressing like women (or thinking they are) for 'entertainment'. What a laugh!
Hate it. I'd like to see it treated exactly like blackface - as an unacceptably degrading parody.

www.theguardian.com/film/2020/jul/25/stage-mother-review-jacki-weaver-feelgood-drag-film-falls-flat#comments

If anyone wants to comment and join me - not many comments as yet.

black women really object to comparing it to black face

I'm sorry but tough shit. There isn't just one voice in this debate

This. And actually the U.K. has its own traditions. Blackface isn’t just offensive because of the US connections. We are not the US. It’s not just minstrelling which is now forbidden but people dressing up as black people or darkening their skin even in tribute to particular black people (a Beyoncé tribute act got cancelled for this). There are particular US reasons why black face is not ok and other reasons more specific to the U.K. I suspect the tradition here has more to do with working class variety acts than the US version. We don’t need to copy the US discourse word for word. Nor do I need to check what some black women say before I determine if I may voice my own views. Womanface is offensive to me. Blackface was horrible before I knew about any connection to lynching in the US.

Shocked but not surprised at the Guardian silencing some perfectly legitimate comments from women.

... some black women really object to comparing it to black face..

And what? These women have no problem at all with drag? Really?

queenofknives wrote - "rather than laughing at women, it's laughing at men and their insecurities and ideals and so on."

How many men have even the faintest understanding that they are the (alleged) intended target of mockery by drag? I believe that many men think that drag is just "a bit of a laugh" and they don't care about its alleged deeper meaning. Many of those men will be homophobes and also misogynists. Such men probably laugh at drag because of its misogyny, not because of its alleged subtle indirect critique of masculine attitudes.

Why do drag performers have to indirectly mock men by directly mocking women?

Mocking women should be no man's stress release technique and/or source of income, which have been two of the main reasons why male gay culture created their drag "tradition". I think this tradition is long past its sell-by date.

I believe that drag is a problematic mockery of women, in its own right.

Comparison with any bad thing should not be necessary, in theory. Unfortunately, a comparison of some type is usually needed in practice because many people find it difficult to accept that something is bad unless it is compared to something more familiar.

I think there are some similarities between drag and blackface but I would not claim that they are the same. Some specific aspects of each are very similar and directly comparable, some aren't.

I believe that drag is based on misogyny; blackface is based on racism. Feminists who oppose drag are comparing misogyny and racism, which are both "major" category oppressions. Misogyny has a grim history in terms of duration, deaths, laws etc. (Remember the 60 million female babies killed in recent years just for being female). Therefore, I think a misogyny/racism comparison is a less trivial comparison than some people claim.

Also it helps men who would rather die than support blackface to make the connection. Many right on men want to show support for their gay friends - who are obviously slightly lesser types of men. So they want to support drag and then get conflicted when they have it pointed out that drag is problematic for women. Which lesser type of human to throw under a bus? Gay men or women ?

Many would choose to support drag but the connection with blackface does give them pause.

You might be right. I definitely don't think straight men have any clue about any of it. I think gay men are (or were) often laughing at themselves and social norms/stereotypes etc - so gay men do know they're being mocked. Or did. I think the misogyny is the element that has dominated since drag left the gay scene to become a netflix special or whatever. It was a part of gay male culture for a long time before that and I am not convinced that it was based on misogyny - I've seen drag that is very tender and funny and didn't feel like it was mocking women, maybe because no one seemed to think that the man in an outrageous frock and wig was anything at all to do with women. Same as I don't think drag kings are necessarily mocking men or really commenting on maleness so much as putting gender stereotypes through a particular filter.

I don't defend any of the drag stuff that's made its way into the mainstream. I do think it's a shame that part of gay culture is now co-opted to serve the cause of misogyny and mockery of women. Had it stayed a small part of gay subculture I think most of us would still view drag queens as parodies of femininity rather than of females, and drag kings as parodies of masculinity rather than of males.

I do find the mainstream version of drag to be offensive and sexist mockery, so not really disagreeing with you. It may be that it's a case of comparing the more gentle and subtle misogyny of my youth with the out and out woman hatred of today!

queenofknives wrote - "I've seen drag that is very tender and funny and didn't feel like it was mocking women, maybe because no one seemed to think that the man in an outrageous frock and wig was anything at all to do with women."

Who are these drag performers who mock femininity rather than femaleness by refusing to use either hormones or some form of breast, hip and buttock padding to create the illusion of a female figure.

A man in an outrageous frock and wig has nothing to do with women. David Bowie, Nicky Wire, Lou Reed, Kurt Cobain, Boy George and plenty more on stage in skirts and make up and hair dolled up isn’t a mockery of women, because it’s nothing to do with women- it’s just that sex shouldn’t dictate clothing, the same way Miranda Yardley in a fabulous hat and dress is still a man.

Drag is about teeny tiny waists and huge fake boobs and ridiculous high heels and fish net stockings - because women must always be sexual objects available to men. It’s about 50 layers of make up and over the top fake lashes and over lined lips and giant hair- because women are superficial and fake and don’t do anything but make ourselves up for men. It’s about the ‘hey bitches’ because we are too stupid to realise a misogynist slur is turned into a greeting so let’s just have a good laugh at that right there. It’s about ‘fish’ because real women’s bodies are smelly and embarrassing and we must be shamed and humiliated for them. It’s a parody of the sex role stereotypes we are socialised to perform and that directly contribute to men’s entitlement to our bodies. Oh yeah and like pp said it’s also men earning money by mocking us in this way.

Who are these drag performers who mock femininity rather than femaleness by refusing to use either hormones or some form of breast, hip and buttock padding to create the illusion of a female figure.

I think we are talking about two different things here - I'm talking about drag queens in gay bars like 30 years ago (some - by no means all - definitely used padding but I doubt anyone was using hormones). I think it has morphed into something much more horrible in the last few years. Whether that's happened because it was inherently misogynistic in the first place is arguable. I don't know and I don't know how I would even go about working that out. It may be the case that the misogyny is inherent but not as explicit or central to drag then as it is now - I think that culture in general is way more misogynistic now than it was 30 years ago.

But to get back to the original point, I think that this is one of the things that makes comparing drag to blackface a bit more complicated than it might be - I may be wrong, but I'm definitely not the only person who has, in times gone by, seen drag as less woman-mockery and more subversive comment on gender. I doubt most people would be able or want to make a case for any kind of positive or subversive element to blackface at any point in its history.

I think the fact that it's not so straightforward would suggest that tactically speaking, it might not be the most useful comparison to draw. Also there's the fact that a lot of women really like drag, even in its modern form, and find it entertaining and funny. I would bet (don't have stats) that the majority of viewers for Rupaul's drag race are women. So that alone could easily take the argument into the weeds.

I don't disagree, as I've said, that mainstream drag is now horribly misogynistic. I do think saying it's the same as blackface is a difficult line to take in an argument, though, for the reasons I've expressed here, as well as the reasons given by those who feel it's an appropriation of arguments about racism.

@Fffffs

A man in an outrageous frock and wig has nothing to do with women. David Bowie, Nicky Wire, Lou Reed, Kurt Cobain, Boy George and plenty more on stage in skirts and make up and hair dolled up isn’t a mockery of women, because it’s nothing to do with women- it’s just that sex shouldn’t dictate clothing, the same way Miranda Yardley in a fabulous hat and dress is still a man.

Drag is about teeny tiny waists and huge fake boobs and ridiculous high heels and fish net stockings - because women must always be sexual objects available to men. It’s about 50 layers of make up and over the top fake lashes and over lined lips and giant hair- because women are superficial and fake and don’t do anything but make ourselves up for men. It’s about the ‘hey bitches’ because we are too stupid to realise a misogynist slur is turned into a greeting so let’s just have a good laugh at that right there. It’s about ‘fish’ because real women’s bodies are smelly and embarrassing and we must be shamed and humiliated for them. It’s a parody of the sex role stereotypes we are socialised to perform and that directly contribute to men’s entitlement to our bodies. Oh yeah and like pp said it’s also men earning money by mocking us in this way.

I agree with all of this.

Although I’ve got my reservations about the comparison with blackface, I’m so relieved and heartened to see so many others share my distaste of drag. For years it’s been a guilty secret - I’ve been worried to voice it in case it’s been somehow misconstrued as homophobic. What can we do to make the misogyny of drag more widely understood and recognised? I actually feel it could be a good way to get across our concerns about the whole gender v sex issue. If there ever was a definition of “female” that the gender ideologists promote, its the one Ru Paul et al personify.

I’m sure there are lots of issues with the various elements of race that I could pick apart. Why don’t I - a white woman - dress up as a black man and treat the world to my views on race and the restrictions it imposes on everyone? Oh yes, it would be hugely offensive. But let’s get some gay men to comment on what they see as the issues around gender and do that dressed as parodies of women and while commenting on our bad smell and our bodily functions ..

I don't agree with the comparisons with blackface. Women aren't born wearing dresses and makeup, so it's not at all comparable.

I also know plenty of women who love drag shows; I don't know a single black person who enjoys seeing white people blacking up.

Nobody has an issue with men in dresses. That’s the whole point. It’s impersonating women with fake boobs - calling women fish because of our smell etc, stage names Flo etc It’s born out of a deep disgust for femininity. Just like the worst of blacking up.