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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Paedophile loses “human rights” appeal

78 replies

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 15/07/2020 13:31

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53416056

GOOD

Glad to see the courts putting safeguarding children ahead of this paedophile’s belief he should be free to contact minors with impunity.

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ProfessorSlocombe · 16/07/2020 16:34

So the incredibly unlikely possibility of this happening should be prioritised over the insidious and prolific child abuse our society suffers from?

To coin a phrase, don't put words into my mouths.

Not agreeing with vigilante behaviour doesn't mean you then are in favour of a paedophile paradise. Or that you wear flowers in your hair. Or that you listen to bebop jazz.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that the only thing you can tell from a person saying they don't like vigilantism is .... that they don't like vigilantism. And there I leave it.

MingeofDeath · 16/07/2020 16:43

Have had a look at the website of one paedo hunting group, Angels of the North, out of 300 arrests there were 180 convictions.

Gronky · 16/07/2020 16:44

I don’t care whether it was vanity or safeguarding that they steamed it, all I care about is that a young girl isn’t being raped in her own home

Is there a benefit that you can see? People have certainly been falsely accused and, rather than then being quietly investigated and, hopefully, found to be innocent, instead have to suffer the consequences of being labelled as a paedophile:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-50324952

ProfessorSlocombe · 16/07/2020 16:53

People have certainly been falsely accused and, rather than then being quietly investigated and, hopefully, found to be innocent, instead have to suffer the consequences of being labelled as a paedophile:

The couple in your link were lucky. They weren't beaten to death.

Xanthangum · 16/07/2020 17:03

Would someone be kind enough to put into words exactly what their "concerns about vigilante groups" are?

  1. Misidentifications, as already mentioned
  1. Vexatious misidentifications, ie conducting deliberate honeytrap stings, fishing expeditions or even planting false evidence against someone who is innocent, because they are deemed to have transgressed the vigilante group in some way
  1. The possibility that because the evidence hasn't been gathered legally the offender will walk free rather than receiving the appropriate sentence.

Not an easy one though, particularly when weighed up against the police's time and resources. I prefer the strengthening of the police's links with good neighbourhood watch programmes as per @JamieLeeCurtains model

OldQueen1969 · 16/07/2020 17:04

I find it interesting that this came about via an "adult" website / app.

I accept that parents have a duty to keep their children as safe as they can online, no question. But tech moves so fast these days that intelligent savvy kids can run ring rounds people - it's a more sophisticated version of my teen years when we'd all be round someone else's house while actually out getting up to mischief. Different times and all that.

But I also believe that these sites should have much, much stricter ID policies when people sign up. If you have to prove your ID to get money out of a gambling site that you have legitimately won in the name of policing money laundering, then it stands to reason that the same level of monitoring at the very least should apply to prevent minors gaining access to adult orientated sites. Few youngsters (I may naively believe) would be able to properly fake birth certificates / passports etc.

I've just seen an expose about a youtube kids chatroom that when tested by investigators posing as a nine year old girl showed real time screenshots of at least 6 predators sending sexually explicit messages within minutes of the sign up. When it was exposed, and the info exchanged youtube penalised the reporter for harassment and cyber bullying. Make of that that you will.

This ruling is an excellent if small win in terms of safeguarding.

OldQueen1969 · 16/07/2020 17:10

Also, in these febrile times, vigilantism is another minefield as others point out.

CSA is appalling and must be stopped, but framing or accusing someone wrongly of this, quite properly regarded as just about the worst crime possible is likely to have awful consequences too, as other PPs have said.

It is quite the tightrope which is why the justice system need to be robust. Although the integrity of it is open to question alot of the time.

ProfessorSlocombe · 16/07/2020 17:12

But I also believe that these sites should have much, much stricter ID policies when people sign up. If you have to prove your ID to get money out of a gambling site that you have legitimately won in the name of policing money laundering, then it stands to reason that the same level of monitoring at the very least should apply to prevent minors gaining access to adult orientated sites. Few youngsters (I may naively believe) would be able to properly fake birth certificates / passports etc.

Which is all very well for sites where you have jurisdiction - in this case in the UK. How can you police sites which aren't hosted in the UK, and where those responsible are out of the UKs jurisdiction ?

Gronky · 16/07/2020 17:13

The couple in your link were lucky. They weren't beaten to death.

I think 'lucky' is a very relative term here.

OldQueen1969 · 16/07/2020 17:16

T hen an international task force should be properly co-ordinated. I agree it wouldn't be easy and it would be a long game of "whack a mole", but it would be a start. Any country that puts "privacy" and money making above cracking down on this stuff shows some true colours and could be pressurised. If we can impose political sanctions for all sorts of perceived abuses and infractions in other areas, why not in this area?

ProfessorSlocombe · 16/07/2020 17:23

@Gronky

The couple in your link were lucky. They weren't beaten to death.

I think 'lucky' is a very relative term here.

Is being a survivor of paedophile misidentification worse than being beaten to death ?

I guess that'll be one for the courts to have fun with .. are you a survivor of false CSA allegations ?

Which of course serves to detract not help the real cases that need to be investigated and bought before the courts.

Gronky · 16/07/2020 17:30

Is being a survivor of paedophile misidentification worse than being beaten to death ?

I think, given the option, most would choose the former but, I understand, there can be consequences beyond simply losing one's life. That's why I would say it's 'relative'.

ProfessorSlocombe · 16/07/2020 17:34

@OldQueen1969

T hen an international task force should be properly co-ordinated. I agree it wouldn't be easy and it would be a long game of "whack a mole", but it would be a start. Any country that puts "privacy" and money making above cracking down on this stuff shows some true colours and could be pressurised. If we can impose political sanctions for all sorts of perceived abuses and infractions in other areas, why not in this area?
You are, of course entirely at liberty to campaign for such an initiative, and to engage with your democratic processes where you live to bring about such a regime. I'm sure it would be very popular.
copperoliver · 16/07/2020 23:30

Bring back hanging all them bastards should be hanged. They are a waste of our resources, cost time and money and ruin lives.

PotholeParadise · 17/07/2020 00:23

My biggest problem with vigilante groups is the insistence on livestreaming on viral media, and the sharing and sharing and sharing again of the video from friend to friend on FB.

What purpose does that serve? I'll tell you. It serves the purpose of tipping off people linked to him through shared 'interests', i.e. child abuse, and alerts them to destroy their hard drives before the police arrive at their houses through files found on the firat man's computer.

Some men may freeze when confronted, but others, once a gang of vigilantes has turned up, run round the house destroying evidence, including their hard drive before the police turn up!

Frankly, if I was a child abuser, I would be following vigilante facebook pages, as an early warning system.

BaronessSlighterThanThou · 17/07/2020 09:00

Thank you for the many replies and information to my question.

I now have concerns myself about vigilante groups.

A subject I personally knew very little about; I've learned a lot on these boards.

ChurchOfWokeApostate · 17/07/2020 09:33

Honestly, I’m thinking myself is it worth a few false accusations to save kids from sexual assault.
Not that I’m thinking of joining any vigilante groups, but for examples of you could prevent 10 or 20 kids being abused, or risk accusing the wrong person, and it was a 50:50, I think I’d take the risk. It’s an interesting thought experiment.

Maybe it’s because I just don’t really believe the trope that false accusations can ruin lives, because even actual convictions rarely do.
They always seem to have a string of cheerleaders behind them, denigrating the victims and shrieking about the injustice of it all.

DGRossetti · 17/07/2020 10:01

Maybe it’s because I just don’t really believe the trope that false accusations can ruin lives

You say that with a story about a man beaten to death as a result of a false allegation posted above.

fascinated · 17/07/2020 10:03

Yes, occasionally a man will be falsely accused, possibly even harmed. How many thousands of lives — women and children’s AND in turn, their kids probably too — are ruined by child abuse though? You really do have to weigh up the competing interests here.

ChurchOfWokeApostate · 17/07/2020 10:40

You say that with a story about a man beaten to death as a result of a false allegation posted above

Yes, and it’s very sad, but it’s an outlier.
You do NOT hear about innocent men being accused and beaten and killed daily.
You DO hear about children being raped, daily.
Women being raped. Daily.
Women being murdered. Okay, only every other day for that one.
No one seems to care about them though.
Their lives don’t seem to be as worthy. No-one cares their lives are ruined.

Most of these innocent men aren’t innocent anyway, not guilty isn’t the same as innocent

PotholeParadise · 17/07/2020 10:41

It's a pointless comparison, as it rests on the assumption that vigilante groups all collect evidence properly including submitting their own electronic devices for analysis, no-one has their case dismissed for entrapment, paedophiles don't successfully infiltrate vigilante groups in order to protect themselves and their mates (if you think that's not happening, you're kidding yourself) and so on.

PotholeParadise · 17/07/2020 10:50

Oh, and the invasion of victims' privacy.

We've been talking this due to a past poster's encounter with a local man. It sounds like thanks to that facebook confrontation, which they did for likes, everyone now knows that he raped his daughter.

Does she deserve for that to be public knowledge? Couldn't the end of stopping the abuse have been served equally well by submitting all the evidence to the police?

And this isn't an isolated situation. Vigilantes do their confrontations for likes at the person's real address where his family also live, who are always potential further victims of his abuse.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 17/07/2020 14:45

ProfessorSlocombe, I doubt you can easily entrap an innocent by offering him something that he doesn't want. I, for instance, would be more likely to report to the police someone who was offering me sex with a minor than to go along to get it. It has long been a truism that you can't con an honest man. (That goes along with "if it seems to be too good to be true, it probably is" in the conman's bible.)

In very simple terms, it does seem to me that if you hold out the possibility of sexual contact with an eleven-year-old to someone who is not interested in it, he is not very likely to turn up to meet the eleven-year-old he might have sexual contact with.

If someone solicits sexual contact with a child and then goes somewhere in the expectation of getting it, he is unlikely to be an innocent -- unless (how probable is this?) he is an undercover policeman hoping to entrap a child.

This is a completely different scenario from the "group of neighbours have incorrect suspicions about a neighbour who is not quite like them", as suffered by for example Christopher Jefferies or Bijan Ebrahimi. Neither of those two had gone somewhere in the expectation of committing a crime, as far as I can tell.

Imnobody4 · 17/07/2020 15:27

This is a completely different scenario from the "group of neighbours have incorrect suspicions about a neighbour who is not quite like them", as suffered by for example Christopher Jefferies or Bijan Ebrahimi. Neither of those two had gone somewhere in the expectation of committing a crime, as far as I can tell.
Exactly what I was going to say. This case is about paedophile hunters who expose men who actually are grooming children on line, arranging to meet them.
Organised vigilantes occur when there is a failure of the state to uphold the law. I deplore this but if the police did their job more effectively, or were given the funding it wouldn't happen. Unfortunately the failure of the police is compounded by the obvious risks of vigilantes operating including evidence trails etc.
Very grateful for the courts decision.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 18/07/2020 14:18

I don’t get what some posters upthread are really saying here. What did they think should happen with this case? What did they want to happen?

This twice-convicted paedophile brought the challenge. He, a man who we know without a shadow of a doubt to be a predator who has already committed a form of sexual abuse against at least one actual child (the boy he sent “explicit photos” to, for which he had already been jailed before the Groom Resisters group caught him), wanted to claim the “human right” to pursue his criminal acts in private. He wanted to be free to groom and sexually abuse children in private.

What on earth could the court rule in this case? “Yes, of course you should have that right, crack on!” Really?

He brought the case. He forced the issue. And the only sane, just response was to say no, you don’t have any right to expectation of privacy when your clear intent is to commit a crime and hurt children.

What is the point of safeguarding if we would be prepared to sweep it aside because “privacy”? We have seen so many cases recently where safeguarding of children - and women - is being steamrollered out of the way, and that show that safeguarding is still not nearly well enough embedded in our society; any other ruling than this one would have been a massive, massive setback for what culture of safeguarding we do have. As it is, it is a much-needed boost to that culture of safeguarding, it is a clear message that the right of children not to be harmed by abusive adults takes precedence over abusive adults‘ “right” to privacy.

Why on earth would anyone conflate what happened here with the tragic murder of Bijan Ebrahim? He wasn’t murdered by people who had actually set up any kind of organisation with the specific intent to catch paedophiles. He was murdered by a vicious gang of neighbourhood bullies, who used the pretext of false accusations of paedophilia as an “excuse” for their hideous violence. No doubt he had been bullied by some of these people for years: the fact that local youths got their kicks out of destroying his hanging baskets just because they were something that a vulnerable, disabled man took pleasure in, and no adults were stopping them, is telling.

How can anyone try to frame that as equivalent in any way to what happened to Mark Sutherland? As AskingQuestions and Imnobody say, these groups are only going after people who are quite clearly not innocent at all, because somebody who wasn’t a predator wouldn’t take the bait in the first place.

I’m not even sure if they qualify as true vigilante groups; don’t vigilantes usually take “justice” into their own hands, as Ebrahim’s murderers did? These groups are holding the men they catch and turning them over to the police to be dealt with by the justice system.

I too am very grateful for the court’s decision here. Whether these anti-grooming groups need to be better regulated or somehow monitored is another issue for debate. But he opposite decision would have been absolutely catastrophic for children’s human rights, and I am very, very relieved it didn’t go that way.

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