Explaining why term ‘woman’ is important.

[pippitysqueakity]

Had a brilliant opportunity with my two teenage DDs in car today who told me J R Rowling was transphobic.
I think I cocked it up (to coin a phrase).
Trying to explain that women is the way to refer to people who menstruate . One of my DD’s has a transgender friend and she said x menstruats and would not thank you for calling her a woman. I tried to explain her gender was female , but if her sex made her menstruate, then her sex is female. This then seemed to me as I said it to be transphobic as I was essentially saying, it doesn’t matter if x identifies as male they are female.
I think maybe I am not clear in my own head, I know I am not a ‘non man’, or a ‘person who menstruates’, but a woman, and I want them to be confident to describe themselves as women/ girls, confidently, but have confused myself a bit I think.
Any suggestions?

I think the issue is that too many organisations are avoiding the word 'women' in information about female health (periods, cervical cancer) and using terms such as 'memstruators' or 'people with a cervix'. Many women find these terms dehumanising, and they're also liable not to be understood by less literate people and those with English as a second language so they are not 'inclusive'.

So, a solution is to use the word 'women' (and 'girls') when apt, but to add other terms eg 'women and transmen'.

From the biological point of view, it doesn't matter if someone identifies as masculine or nonbinary gender - their sex is still female. They might not want reminding of it but it's no kindness to pretend otherwise.

You might want to ask them to think critically about why this restriction on language only seems to pertain to female specific issues - information on male problems such as testicular or prostate cancer don't shy away from simply using the word 'men'.

I would ask your DDs if they think "men" is ok for men's health issues. The slogan for prostate cancer health messages is "Men, we are with you" - I just saw it on tv. Nice and clear. Of course trans men don't have a prostate and transwomen do but no one seems to kick up a fuss about that.

Whether her friend likes it or not that’s the reason they menstruate. You can respect their pronouns, stick up for them, fight for their acceptance but female biology makes them menstruate. They must be aware of that even if it makes them unhappy. None of that stops anyone caring for them or sympathising with them or wishing them a happy life.

But now the slogan is more

“Transwomen are women- transmen are menstruators.” How would that make her friend feel?

As has been said upthread the inclusive way is to say “women, transmen and non- binary females (or however they term themselves.)”

Because it’s half measures at the moment. No one is really included and it doesn’t seem like anyone writing these info packs will go all in and put “women and men menstruate” which I’m sure is how most TMs would like to be referred to as. I dunno. No one gets to be treated like a person.

Until it refers to men’s health, which presumably includes pmt, endometriosis, pnd, pregnancy issues etc, no?

This is the issue for me. No one is telling men they can’t be referred to by their sex because it’s not inclusive. So why should women?

I don't find 'menstruator' dehumanising. I am human because I am human. I understand that some people find 'menstruator' dehumanising, but I don't think you will sway your daughters with this argument if they don't mind the term.

However, terms like 'menstruator' and 'birthing person' put all the little things that only happen to women in boxes and pretend that they are random and have no effect, which makes it impossible to recognise the very real impact of sex.

Look at the recent report on women's healthcare. Women's concerns about their health are routinely ignored because anything can be put down to hormones/time of the month/going through the change. We don't really know whether most drugs are safe in pregnancy, so women just don't take drugs, or take risks. None of this has anything to do with identity. A doctor isn't going to pay more attention to period pain because you declare yourself non-binary. We haven't even reached the stage when our health concerns are taken seriously, and now we are supposed to pretend that its all good, sex doesn't exist?

There are unavoidable consequences if you have the kind of body that has evolved to grow another human being, regardless of whether you want children, and we need language to express this.

We can't talk about sex if the idea of being female is too offensive to discuss.

Form my limited knowledge, I see it like this..

There are two sexes Male and Female

How you identify is completely different, that's gender

See I'm a female and even I'm confused 🤔

Thank you. I did say to them men are never referred to as ‘people who ejaculate’ or non women, but at that point they both were just saying it’s all too confusing.
Which it is, but important.
And I really felt, they just didn’t believe me if that makes sense and dismissed what I was saying because they are very young and very ‘woke’ ‘( in a young way) and don’t understand the nuances.
But yes, if x is a man biologically they wouldn’t menstruate, end of story I suppose.
I do appreciate the responses, when I was their age, my Mum was a feminist (albeit a married one who was probably more lip service to ideals) and I thought I was radical for reading Germaine Greer and she thought she was by working though a ministers wife, because times change and these were issues that never came up.
They are learning to be critical thinkers, but not quite there yet, and are at the point of, this is hard, I can’t think about it any more, what do my friends think echo chamber type thing.

It might be time to stop bandying words with your DDs and just tell them that they're being bloody daft.

It won't change their minds, but at least you won't feel 'confused' about what the word woman means, and you'll send a message that you won't be tolerating their woke bullshit any more than you would tolerate them running off with the circus.

I told them, I never want them to have to deny they are women.

And was very clear, even though I no longer menstruate I am a woman, and x’s sex is female although her gender may be male.

Have I got that right?

@pippitysqueakity I had a similar conversation with my DD recently too. She also thinks JKR is transphobic.

I feel like I need to start educating myself on trans issues as it's totally new to me.

All I know is I'm comfortable being a woman and labelled as such.

I guess it's inevitable that each generation will find the previous generation somehow lacking in "wokeness" for want of a better term.

A friend advised me I don't have to agree with my daughter. We may not be able to agree on these issues.

If anyone can recommend somewhere to educate myself in a balanced way I'd appreciate it. My DD has been watching some trans youtuber with a very strong agenda and I could do with some info to balance it out. I know how influential these people can be and I'm hoping to encourage my daughter to see things from different perspectives.

Slightly off the thread of the thread here, but I've always thought it interesting that the word woman literally means "from man"

Slightly off the thread of the thread here, but I've always thought it interesting that the word woman literally means "from man"

I don't think that's correct, the etymology is more interesting than that! 'Man' was originally neutral 'person' - a male was a 'werman'. 'Woman' was from 'wifman' which meant 'female person'. But over time, males became the default person and 'man' lost its neutrality.

www.macmillandictionaryblog.com/his-and-hers-wyf-and-wer

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/woman

I just want to say, I was very clear what JK said was not transphobic and if people took the time to read her words, not others about them they would see that.
Maybe it is just the age old problem as said above, that our parents are always wrong.
I did not pussy foot about them, I am just wondering how to find the words to explain something that seems self evident to me, but obviously not to them. They are beyond the age of ‘because I say so’ sadly.
They are not ‘woke ‘ in a stupid, in your face way, just as their generation is.
I did also mention the hate JK got, including the ‘suck my lady dick’ stuff and asked them where they thought that hate would come from, but at their age (and thank goodness) they appeared have no frame of reference for that.I mentioned John Cleese got none of that, but they have never heard of him.🤷‍♀️

I agree I read the whole of JKR's text and I do not find it transphobic.

I feel overwhelmed by the trans issues being discussed at the moment and don't know where to start a) educating myself and b) helping my daughter make up her own mind in the face of some very persuasive people on the internet, each with their own agenda.

Throughout history and across the world today, the people who menstruate, who have their genitals mutilated, who bear children, who breastfeed, who raise children, who are paid less, who do the lion's share of all caring work are called 'women'.

No matter what you identify as, you can't identify out of that.

I do think it's hard for young women, socialised as they are to put others first. Their intuitive response to to 'care for' those who are portrayed as the underdog.

Women's bodies have the capacity to menstruate. Whether they do or not, because of illness, menopause etc doesn't matter. You can't identify out of your sexed body, although you can find your sexed body very inconvenient in lots of ways.

There are a lot of safe spaces for women that are disappearing as they have become inclusive of transwomen, including women's shelters, women's sport, women's prisons. Crime stats for women now include transwomen as women and that is how it is reported.
If we have no right to the word women as a class then you can't defend women's rights to safe space.

If we lose the right to the word 'woman', we lose the right to even name sexism and misogyny, let alone organise against it.

There's so much at stake.

It won't change their minds, but at least you won't feel 'confused' about what the word woman means, and you'll send a message that you won't be tolerating their woke bullshit any more than you would tolerate them running off with the circus.

Yes, I'm inclined to agree. This nonsense shouldn't be tiptoed around and pandered to. It shouldn't be legitimised as a reasonable view.

Caroline Criado Perez's Invisible Women = for setting out why exactly women need to be considered and how much society is still structured with men-as-default.

I hope you will explain to them that it is intended to be confusing so that they will not see through the razzle dazzle to the simple fact that objective reality has a well known transphobic bias.
Replacing sex with gender is like replacing modern medicine with prayers. Believing it yourself is foolish but demanding that others share your beliefs is inexcusable.

Also, there are a whole host of laws that depend on the adult human female definition of women.

Mother is under attack in Argentina IIRC.

The endgame, intended or not, is women as a class being written out legally.

I find the TRAs project quite a bit. Our legal existence is under threat of being erased.

I have been reading up on the techicalities of how that definition is quite 100% accurate. That's disengenuous, it's more than sufficient to base law on, and is absolutely the definition used in our oppression.

hippospot The thread linked below explains a lot

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me