He fathered a child using his eggs...

[GCmiddle]

Taken from yesterday's Pride Power list , referring to trans man Jake Graf - apparently, he "recently fathered a child using his eggs that were frozen pre-transition".
This level of gaslighting is really pissing me off now!

That is dreadful.

it is taking the piss! How arrogant to think that their demands should override the basic concepts of human biology. The eggs are produced by the mother - end of. It's been rejected as a legal concept in any case, that recent court case of Freddy McConnell, a transman who applied to be named as the father (after actually carrying the baby!!) - they are messing about with nature.

FFS!

Their child has to accept that. the child will feel that being feminine is letter her parent down. Her being to overtly masculine is letting their parent down. Whatever expression they push back down to be obligingly non-binary for their parent's sake.

Is that the person who is also raising their child non-binary ?? I read something on line the other day, glanced at it and thought, what, they're both non-binary? what a coincidence...

just on a point of grammar - I don't think one would say that someone had "mothered a child" and be meaning that they had created a fetus/baby.

Personally I have no problem with someone creating a child in such an unusual way but I do suspect there will be all sorts of issues to deal with as the child grows up and understands how they are different from others.

Excuse me for apparently being thick but only biological females produce eggs. Biological males produce sperm.

Being trans can't change that.

Did Jake use a surrogate?

www.thesun.co.uk/news/11418758/transgender-parents-hannah-jake-graf-baby/

They used Jake’s eggs and donor sperm and a surrogate carried their baby.

Did they fuck as like. They could only have 'fathered' a child if they produced the sperm. That biology, not transphobia.

I wondered, given the general invisibility of transmen, if this couple really are the first UK transgender couple to have a baby. Seems unlikely.
Biologically female partners, however they identify their gender, have been having babies together by using donor sperm since forever.

We've been "interfering with nature" since the first broken bone was set, I guess; it's part of human civilisation. If nature had been been interfered with, I for one wouldn't still be alive!

I think this is more of a language issue which could have been avoided by use of the gender-neutral "parented" instead. Though parenting, like mothering, carries meanings of nurture and care while fathering mostly doesn't, or not so much. A man (can we still say man?) can father a child in one meeting and never be seen or heard from again, can't he (can we still say he?)?

I think an element of the TRA lobby is being deliberately challenging - even provocative - with its use of language, like someone spoiling for a fight.

We need to pick the hills we are willing to die on, and thus isn't one for me. I'm happy for trans-men to have beanies and nurture them and for the NHS to take good care of them, just as they should all pregnant women and mothers. The pronouns and labels needed are not really the concern of the rest of us if we aren't midwives or obstetricians. Let's avoid giving oxygen to the people who seem to us to be attention seeking but harmless. Seahorse parents are always going to be a vanishingly tiny minority and they aren't any threat. I'm much more concerned about the subverting of public bodies like councils, schools and universities that can lead to silencing, cancelling and actual harm to children.

@AmberAndAlexsMum

Excuse me for apparently being thick but only biological females produce eggs. Biological males produce sperm.

Being trans can't change that.

My thoughts exactly...

I'm happy for trans-men to have beanies and nurture them

Nice Freudian typo there. I wish they would stick to beanies if they’re not going to call it by what it is ie having BABIES because they are WOMEN

Someone told me that a midwife they work with who is F-M trans is now trying to be a surrogate for gay men.

Blimey that’s a world first

The pronouns and labels needed are not really the concern of the rest of us if we aren't midwives or obstetricians.

I disagree because the change in language is pushed onto all mothers and pregnant women.

I don't really care if an individual transman insists that all the clinicians in their medical appointments or birthing suite use the terms 'birthing parent' or 'father' rather than mother.

But it doesn't stop there - the current insistence is that all women are addressed with certain terms without their input or consent to appease a tiny minority of people who won't be present in those women's medical appointments or birthing suites.

"The pronouns and labels needed are not really the concern of the rest of us if we aren't midwives or obstetricians*

I disagree. I individual cases I can support staff using preferred pronouns to the transman, but it's dangerous to say they fathered the child. That has a very specific biological meaning that can impact on the health and wellbeing of the child.
Biological processes shouldn't be obscured by misleading language.
I've worked as a geneticist, I've taken complex family histories and tried to track x-linked conditions through generations (for example).
Who the mother is and who the father is biologically needs to be clear and explicit on all documents and in the minds of family members. It's polite to use preferred pronouns day to day, it's dangerous to apply preferred pronouns to biological processes where sex matters.
Conceiving and birthing a child is a biological process where sex matters.

@irisnotadaff

Someone told me that a midwife they work with who is F-M trans is now trying to be a surrogate for gay men.

I just do not understand how someone who does not feel "like a female", is not comfortable with "feminine" gender norms, and does not feel like they are in the right body, to the point where they declare they are a transman; then goes on to willingly fulfil evolution's ultimate pre-destiny for females and gestate a child.

And if such a person has obtained, or is applying for, a gender recognition certificate, how are they fulfilling the "living as a man" part? It's just a gigantic fraud. No wonder they have to bend reality, biology and language (and push for self ID, where nobody is assessing them). It's the only way for them to get their cake and eat it.

I'm so fucking beyond sick of this shit.

Oh, deep joy, I didn't spot my own typo. Beanies! 😂

Even better than theybies.

But Bromfondle (great name!) as DNA testing kits are making ever more clear, individuals and families cannot be certain, particularly of who their father is. Many a nasty shock has been unwrapped by a kit result.

Or just think of top geneticist Sir Paul Nurse who thought he knew who his parents were and then discovered he was actually the son of the woman he thought was his elder sister and a father he still has no clue about!

Certainty about parenthood is an ideal, not a norm.

I'd love to know whether Sir Paul has opinions about how real and valid biological sex is...

Ovahere, I get your point about the word salad labels being forced into everybody by a tiny group wanting to feel 'comfortable'. I don't think everybody should be confusingly relabelled for this reason.

And anyone embarking on conceiving, carrying, birthing and nurturing a baby (or beanie, or beanie baby, or theyby) had better put all thoughts of comfort aside for two or three years or more anyway! 😳

That’s concerning - given what we know about the impacts of messing about with hormones in pregnant women (that has been in the news just recently) and the potential for damaged babies I’m not sure how you can get the body of a trans man to be safe with all the hormone treatment they have. Surely the testosterone would make you infertile?

I think you could fix the sentence by replacing the verb "to father a child" and just using "became a parent" instead. I mean "his eggs" sounds strange but the rest of the sentence ("that were frozen pre-transition") makes it clear.

I respect the desire to use chosen pronouns but "fathering" a child is definitely a step too far!

So in order to indulge these people another woman is needed (so biology is really quite important, eh?!) possibly opening up a whole host of health concerns for her? So fuelling the surrogacy market even more.

The sheer entitlement is breath taking

garden really good point about suddenly throwing a load of hormones into the mix, when women can't even take some basic pain killers during pregnancy.

Also, absolutely everything @OvaHere said.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3887308-Pregnant-people-and-birthing-people