Should a 'special' group of people be allowed to hide their criminal history?

[NonnyMouse1337]

As a society, we should be reframing the melodramatic and mindless slogans from the trans privilege lobby into sensible questions worthy of national debate.

I propose some questions:

Should a 'special' group of people be allowed to hide their criminal history?

Is it evidence of prejudice, 'phobia', and discrimination if they are unable to do so?

Is this a human right?

If it's a human right, surely it should apply to all humans?

In 2018, a transwoman declared an intention to bring a judicial review to enable them to delete two crimes they committed 'as a man' because otherwise it would be 'outing' them. I wonder if they managed to go ahead with the judicial review? Be interesting if anyone was able to find out.

Article below.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-offender-seeks-to-wipe-crimes-as-aman-from-record-qfk5w68lb

Trans offender seeks to wipe crimes as a man from record

September 09 2018

A transgender offender is seeking to delete from her record two crimes that could only have been committed by a man.

“I do not wish my gender history to be more widely known and do not wish to disclose my trans status to employers,” the woman, who asked to be identified only as Helen, said. She wishes to launch a judicial review to remove two convictions for “importuning as a man” when she worked at a Soho “clip joint” in the 1970s and 1980s.

A right to removal, if established, could cover rape, another crime that can legally be committed only by a person with a penis.

Trans people with a gender recognition certificate are legally entitled to keep their birth gender secret.

Helen’s barrister, Claire McCann, said disclosure of offences that revealed Helen’s birth gender in criminal record checks was “severe and discriminatory interference with Helen’s right to respect for her private life”.

Christopher Stacey, director of Unlock, a support group that is backing the case and seeking other potential claimants, said the law risked “outing” transgender people.

However, Nicola Williams, of Fair Play for Women, said any change would open up a “huge loophole” whereby sex offenders could transition to “wipe out” their crimes.

● This article was amended on November 8 2018 to make clear that Helen is not currently bringing a judicial review application but wishes to do so.

It certainly sounds like a massive loophole

She wishes to launch a judicial review to remove two convictions for “importuning as a man” when she worked at a Soho “clip joint” in the 1970s and 1980s.

Not sure what "importuning as a man" means... - harassing someone for sex?

What's a "clip joint"?

Importuning as a man was offering sex to another man it's called "harassment" but that was to due to the homophobia of the time. So his crime might just be coming on to someone (although it's unclear if this was done with an element of what we would now call harassment or not)

No loopholes should exist for sex offenders, male or female at the time the offences were committed.

I thought that if they were 'spent' then you didn't need to disclose them apart from certain 'high risk' jobs? And surely for those roles they must remain.

Anyone can seek to bring a JR. It doesn't mean they'll be allowed to do so, let alone that they'd succeed in their aims. And those offences would only show up on an enhanced DBS, because they'd be spent on any more basic one.

I can't see this ever succeeding, because the safeguarding principle is why there are special arrangements after transitioning legally to ensure the connection can be made. That's still the case, and given the story is from 2 years ago it seems to have gone nowhere.

More to the point: crimes related solely to homophobia should be removed from everyone's criminal record.

*More to the point: crimes related solely to homophobia should be removed from everyone's criminal record.
*
Couldn't agree more. Nobody should have a criminal record, a sexual offence no less, for being gay. I think the trans issue is probably secondary here

Unless you are under witness protection or have been given a new identity there’s no way you should be allowed to hide a criminal record.

I suppose there’s an area where, say a young woman (or man) has been convicted of prostitution when they were coerced or threatened into the lifestyle. That’s a whole very different argument.

But this is not the case to support that. Using this case to wipe historic crimes that are now considered non-crimes, would surely set a precedent that changing your ID entitles you to wipe crimes from your record.

or have been given a new identity

Really?

Agreed.
Crimes should not be wiped clear, unless they are things like being charged for being gay.

I mean in the case of in the U.K. where someone is convicted of a crime and let out but they are given a new identity (for their own safety usually). However - that doesn’t mean that people like the James Bulger murderers should ever be allowed 100miles near a child.

I mean in the case of in the U.K. where someone is convicted of a crime and let out but they are given a new identity (for their own safety usually). However - that doesn’t mean that people like the James Bulger murderers should ever be allowed 100miles near a child.

I think generally in these cases the person is given a criminal record - just a more “generic” one.

crimes related solely to homophobia should be removed from everyone's criminal record.

Absolutely. That's a much more sensible angle that most people would be happy to support.

LangCleg wrote Thu 21-Feb-19

"How did the scandal of TV entertainers grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

How did the scandal of Catholic priests grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

How did the scandal of on-street gangs grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

Because if you create a sacred caste of any group and silence anyone asking questions about individuals on behalf of the sacred caste, abusers will see, infiltrate, and groom and exploit children. That''s how."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3512177-Julia-Long-asking-Munro-Bergdorf-about-child-exploitation?pg=12

Christopher Stacey, director of Unlock, a support group that is backing the case and seeking other potential claimants, said the law risked “outing” transgender people.

Why should transgender people be given the special privilege of hiding who they are? For other people who change their identities (people who change their names or nationality, for example) their previous identities are kept on record.

One of the reasons for the GRA was about someone not being outed as a transsexual to the general public, but there was consensus that the person's previously identity should be retained in official records for those who need to know.

This is actually one of my biggest concerns around GRA: the idea that the right to privacy (good thing) will cover all previous names and crimes on a DBS or enhanced DBS check (bad thing). As a woman, if I apply for certain things I have to list all my previous names - but as a trans man (if this happens the way I think it will happen) I wouldn't have to?

Tell me again how women have more rights than trans people??

Billy Bragg prattles on about accountability...

...and then is completely blind to criminals with a special filter being able to use the special filter to hide from equal accountability.

What's a "clip joint"?

A clip joint was a club or bar where 'adult entertainment' was offered, the cost of drinks was exorbitant, and customers were encouraged to run up a slate so that they didn't know until the end of the evening the true cost. If they couldn't pay the outrageous sum demanded, or objected, they were given short shrift by the security staff.

Lifelong registration as a sex offender was held to be a breach of human rights law, so convicted offenders have the right to appeal. Of those that do around 3/4 are removed from the requirement to register with the police when they move or change jobs.

''Data on applications from criminals in England and Wales that was released to The Daily Mail shows that only 363 of 1,288 requests by offenders were denied by police between 2016 and 2018.''
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/01/03/nearly-three-quarters-sex-offenders-removed-official-register/

Along with the right to erase your past, this creates two loopholes that people responsible for recruitment and safeguarding should be aware of.

@TedsFederationRep

What's a "clip joint"?

A clip joint was a club or bar where 'adult entertainment' was offered, the cost of drinks was exorbitant, and customers were encouraged to run up a slate so that they didn't know until the end of the evening the true cost. If they couldn't pay the outrageous sum demanded, or objected, they were given short shrift by the security staff.

Oh wow, didn't know that. Thanks for the explanation TedsFederationRep.

Like a Bugsy Malone speakeasy...

Fab

I’ll go on a murder spree, then transition and have it all erased from my file as it was crimes I committed whilst I was a woman and I don’t want people to know my past as a woman

Seriously, if this goes through, we will see crimes rocketing and then being wiped

I knew Karen Jones/Lawson a couple of years ago; at the time, she was job-hopping between manager positions at McDonald's/BK etc.

I wondered if she'd disclosed her previous convictions (all before she transitioned), and if she had, how on earth she'd landed positions that had her in a night manager job with staff who could have been under 18.

Then again, Lord Patel said that she'd done her time and was a perfectly acceptable guest at the House of Lords to speak about LGBT equality, so :shrug:

@Soubriquet
I’ll go on a murder spree, then transition and have it all erased from my file as it was crimes I committed whilst I was a woman and I don’t want people to know my past as a woman

Go for it! I don't think you'll actually need to hide your past though.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5440153/Trans-convict-invited-speak-House-Lords.html
Apologies for the DM link