Can I vent here?

[HarryHarry]

I posted on another thread about how I’ve fallen out with my closest friend here (where I live, not the UK) after challenging her about JKR. She wrote “Fuck TERFS” in a post about JKR, I asked her what she thought JKR had said or done wrong, and that led to a huge argument which culminated in us agreeing never to discuss this topic again in order to save our friendship.

Throughout the argument, I tried to make it clear that I supported trans people (genuine ones, not your Travis Alabanza types) but that I did not agree with everything that was being done in their name. I gave her examples of things I had seen and heard during my time as a teacher in the UK. She did not respond to any of the points I made except to deliberately misinterpret them, conveniently ignoring the parts that didn’t fit her narrative of what a TERF is like. Instead she just shouted slogans like “Trans women are women!” and “Trans rights are human rights!” (the latter is not even in question). She also said she thought it was “sad” that I felt my womanhood was “threatened” by theirs. But the thing that really got me was when she said she thought a transwoman’s right to feel safe and comfortable in public spaces was more important than a woman’s (because of course they are the most vulnerable, the most oppressed group ever). I honestly could not believe that a self-proclaimed feminist could ever say that.

Anyway weeks later we have still not seen or spoken to each other so I guess our friendship is over even though we tried to pretend it wasn’t. What I need to vent about is that she is now flooding her social media with screenshots of tweets from people like Munroe Bergdorf and anti-GC memes including pictures of guns with slogans like “Arm Trans Women” and “Support Trans Rights or Die”. This, by the way, is from an otherwise liberal, anti-gun, Democrat voter from the US. I feel that these are clearly aimed at me as she had clearly never mentioned trans issues until JKR.

The war on women has really affected my mental health, which tbh was already in a bit of a precarious state, but it has been made worse by her posting things like “Support trans rights or die” because I feel like she is saying that I, personally, deserve to die simply for disagreeing with her.

I have of course deactivated all my social media accounts to avoid seeing this shit but I sometimes have to log back in to check for news about the local groups that I am part of and stumble upon her posts.

Please someone help me understand why a person who is not even trans herself and has no close trans friends can feel so strongly about this issue? I used to think she was intelligent and discerning. How a person who prides herself on being anti-fascist cannot see the irony in her own attitudes and behaviour (calling for book banning/burning, compelled speech, censorship, cancelling, violence/death for non-believers, deliberately misinterpreting people’s words in order to denounce them, etc) is just staggering.

Does this comment disregard women in this debate - is this phrase the giveaway. I'd like to bet that this gets loads of posts, like all the other ones that are posted by men.

Eh?

Could you write that again in such a way that I could understand it. Please.

Travis, for me, is a shining example of why gender non-conforming men need to take this up with other men. Women are not support humans for men who feel marginalised by and at risk of violence from other men.

Yep. Travis should be expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be mxle

Honestly? Remove them from your social media and your life

Treat them like a toddler and deny them a fucking audience

If they speak to you on real life about removing them just say lifes to short for social media vaguely say you will add them again and don't bother

@AnotherLass

I think that some of the people who cancelling other people for not believing in gender ID ideology are overcompensating because they deep down they know that there is something wrong with it, and that really scares them, because you have to believe it or trans people will kill themselves etc

When I was a strong trans ally, I had the odd moment of cognitive dissonence. My child said it was rubbish, and was sexist and made no sense, and I struggled to explain why it wasn't. I knew she was wrong (!) but I lacked an explanation for why. And there was that moment when Whoopi Goldberg said Rachel Dolzeal was no different to trans, so if one was okay, why wasn't the other? She was howled down, but again, I remember an uneasy sense that she was spot on: where was the difference? And I shoved that right down because I assumed it was just unconscious bias, and awful of me.

I just assumed I didn't understand enough, and needed to do better. I'm embarrassed by how strongly I believed that trans women posed no threat to women at all, and that statistics would bear that out. And I don't know why I believed that, quite honestly. It was the hard facts that shifted me (which is why I think links are so important, when making statements. Giving people the evidence). I just took it for granted as part of the package of what decent people believed.

I still have times when I wish I didn't know. This is not a battle any of us like having to wage at all, and I send sympathy and solidarity to everyone dealing with the costs. But it's only thanks to all who did so when it was far less mainstream as a view, that we are in the position we are now.

BaronessBrighterThanYou. OP doesn't mention women's rights at all. The way the piece was written just struck a cord. When I looked at topics, I could see that e.g. A question for Transmen & Transwomen has 146 posts. Trying to understand hate trans people get on here 577 posts. Now look at some of the topics that are very important to women and you can just take your pick. Some have loads of for obvious reasons and some just overlooked. I know it's choice it does see, odd to me. Hope a bit clearer, if not, can do no more.

@BaronessBrighterThanYou

Yep. Travis should be expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be mxle

When I looked at topics, I could see that e.g. A question for Transmen & Transwomen has 146 posts. Trying to understand hate trans people get on here 577 posts.

Its a conversation with a young transman and positive.
If you see evidence of actual hatred on the board there are particular rules (above those of the rest of the site) to enable reporting. There is a pinned post to assist with understanding the terms here.

I'm also tired of having to defend what I thought was the obvious (women's rights, child safeguarding) and to justify my position.

I'm trying to reframe this by asking gender advocates why? There is a good example of this on the Twitter feed for Garbage, where somebody has replied to the band saying, oh so does that mean you support xyz then? So girls pitted against boys in sports, spousal veto, children on puberty blockers, males in women's refuges etc?)

But still they manage to square that somehow with loaded language and terminology - murder, suicide, homophobia, transphobe, bigot, better to have a living child, what does it cost you? Be kind etc. The cognitive dissonance is astounding.

There used to be a phrase "you can't argue with crazy." Hats off to those who do, but I think when somebody is displaying such incendiary behaviour, as your friend, walk away.

Thank you for your candid and insightful post wellbehaved. It's interesting to hear that perspective and how you turned 360.

There used to be a phrase "you can't argue with crazy." Hats off to those who do, but I think when somebody is displaying such incendiary behaviour, as your friend, walk away.

The question is "who's going to benefit from you making the effort?"

Quite a lot of answers - for instance, family and friends of the person who're feeling "am I the only one who can see how batshit this is?" might feel supported by someone gently saying "I think you're not looking at the whole picture here."

You yourself as friend - rather than a "soft block" you might want to first cautiously see if they are open to reason (it seems not in this instance, but I did have some success on this front with a Canadian friend who retweeted a "TERFs are scum" tweet - I pointed out that I fell into the group of people being villified, simply because I thought there were circumstances where biology mattered - and to my enormous relief she actually agreed).

@highame

BaronessBrighterThanYou. OP doesn't mention women's rights at all. The way the piece was written just struck a cord. When I looked at topics, I could see that e.g. A question for Transmen & Transwomen has 146 posts. Trying to understand hate trans people get on here 577 posts. Now look at some of the topics that are very important to women and you can just take your pick. Some have loads of for obvious reasons and some just overlooked. I know it's choice it does see, odd to me. Hope a bit clearer, if not, can do no more.

Agonising over a political disagreement with a friend is a very ‘female socialisation’ thing fo do though!

If you are socialised male it would be more likely you’d either forget about it fairly quickly or call the mate a name to their face and then forget about it (or report them to their boss and demand they be fired).

Seeking out other women to analyse what happened and try and understand where the friend is coming from isn’t very ‘Male’!

Nature/nurture still very much up for debate, my personal opinion is that we’re all a mixture of biology/genetics + socialisation but if you are blank slate OR bio essentialist, this still isn’t male -typical behaviour. Men who pop up on here either write great screeds relating to themselves (and not about their friends!) or mostly read and occasionally add when they have something specific to add to the discussion (but don’t generally start threads, or if they do it’s generally about a public figure relevant to the board).

She sounds horrible OP. I would block her on social media and ignore her.

Agreed. By escalating her posting on this topic, she’s told you the friendship is over. No need to torment yourself unnecessarily.

Thanks for your replies, I will try to read through the full thread later today. Just a couple stuck out at me...

@InTheWings What I mean regarding Travis Alabanza is that although he may fit the new, Stonewall definition of trans, he does not actually identify or live his life as a transwoman, does he? So I wouldn’t consider him a “genuine” transperson by which I mean someone with gender dysphoria who has transitioned to live as though they were the opposite sex. Travis should have the right to present however he likes without receiving physical or verbal abuse, just like anybody else, but he has no right to be in a woman’s space.

@highame I’m confused by your post. Are you assuming that I’m a man and if so, what gave you that idea? What is it about that part of my post that makes you uncomfortable? Obviously I didn’t mean that if you are not trans and you don’t know any trans people you have no reason to care about them - I just don’t know why this particular person would care so much that she is willing to destroy our friendship and go against her own values (ie she’s now advocating violence against women who she deems to be T*RFs).

I'm openly GC on fb and yes, have had a few people walk away from me over it, but I haven't died from folk disagreeing with me or disapproving of my views. You can just unfollow, so you're still friends but you don't see her posts, if unfriending is a step too far. I have to admit that I'd be tempted to still take a peek every now and again, just to see when she gets chewed up and spat out by the inevitable purity spiral. The louder she is, the harder it will hit her. She cannot possibly not make a slip up at some point, and she'll be delivered a large dose of whip-ass by someone purer than her at some point. I'm shallow so I always enjoy a nice bit of schadenfreude.

Travis is as genuinely trans as anyone else. So is Karen White for that matter, behaviour and actions aren't relevant in whether or not to recognise their gender identity choices.

Their behaviours are a very good reason why female people don't want them using female spaces to better express themselves. However even if they were the most appropriate and female respecting people, they are still male, they still cannot use female spaces without some females being excluded by the fact of their presence alone which is an inclusion issue that cannot be ignored, and they would still cause significant numbers of females discomfort, embarrassment and to avoid using female spaces.

Travis being genuinely trans or not is neither here more there. Travis’ sex is male, and single sex spaces are designated via sex. NB need to use birth sex spaces or unisex spaces, not the facilities for people of the opposite sex.

I'm petty and agree with BigGee. Her time will come too.

I think you are right to deactivate from social media. But if you want to keep in touch with local groups isn't it possible to just block her (I know you can do this on facebook but not sure about other platforms.)

Also, and this is just a thought, if you are missing interaction with others on social media is it worth posting something along the lines of you are deactivating because of receiving posts advocating violence and this making you feel unsafe. Its possible that other friends might reach out to you, or at least agree that someone who is advocating violence (in whatever cause) is not worth having in a friendship or local community network.

You have a right not to have people posting negative and destructive messages whether aimed directly at you or not. But you also have the right to be able to use social media to help you interact in a postive way, to stay engaged locally and for friendship.

So I wouldn’t consider him a “genuine” transperson by which I mean someone with gender dysphoria who has transitioned to live as though they were the opposite sex.

There are significant differences amongst those initially believed to be 'true trans'

Many people have said they have found this thread useful:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

She's not your friend. Sorry. Time to unfriend her on FB.

Real friends have a mutual respect for each other, even when they disagree.

Perhaps Travis Alabanza was a bad example. I accept that he is “trans” under the current definition and that he may have experienced abuse for how he identifies, which is obviously wrong. (I think I am right in saying he doesn’t identify as a woman, though?)

I was actually going to use Jonathan Yaniv as an example initially but when I distinguish between genuine transwomen and the rest, I don’t just mean men who are perverts bordering on the criminal. I mean men who haven’t really put the work in or committed to being women (in as much as they can) before demanding access to women’s spaces. I think it smacks of entitlement and arrogance as well as lack of consideration for the women in that space.

I don’t think this type of “trans” woman is what the general public think of when they think of transwomen or when they say that trans women are women or that they support trans rights or that they’re OK with transwomen using women’s spaces. I certainly don’t. Paris Lees - I probably wouldn’t even bat an eyelid if I saw her in a public toilet. But Danielle Muscato, on the other hand...he’s not even trying!

Anyway I guess my point was that the issue is not as black and white as my friend seems to think it is. But she has interpreted me being broadly supportive but with some reservations as me = full on transphobe T*RF scum who deserves to die.

Sometimes I am just so shocked at the way things are going. That people think it’s OK to talk to others like this just for disagreeing with them! Whatever I think of certain aspects of trans ideology, I would never be anything less than polite and respectful to a trans person whether it’s online or IRL. The same cannot be said of them and their allies towards people like me.

Thank you all here for listening!

@R0wantrees What do you mean by “those initially believed to be”? I would like to understand the differences.

Many people have preconceptions about the nature and circumstances people who they often describe as 'true trans'

As with most preconceptions the reality is different.

Many people find this thread useful in understanding some significant differences between groups of people who would be regarded by many as 'true trans'
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Important articles recently published by Uncommon Ground Media.
Worth reading in order:

Dr Em
'Sexist History at the Heart of the ‘Science’ on Transsexualism, Part I: Benjamin, Ihlenfeld, Money & Ehrhardt'
May 1, 2020

Dr Em explores how the founding fathers of ‘scientific’ research on transgenderism/transsexualism were motivated by sexist beliefs.

uncommongroundmedia.com/sexist-science-transsexualism-part-i-benjamin-ihlenfeld-money-ehrhardt/

Dr Em
'Sexist History at the Heart of the ‘Science’ on Transsexualism, Part II: Robert Stoller, True Trans'
May 3, 2020

Dr Em reveals how ‘true trans’ doesn’t exist & Robert Stoller’s work shows how the ‘science’ of transsexualism/transgenderism has always been anti-feminist.

uncommongroundmedia.com/robert-stoller-true-trans/

Jennifer Bilek
'Deconstructing the “Good Transwomen”'
May 6, 2020

Transwomen who recognise the misogyny inherent in transgender and transsexual activism must still confront the objectification of women they participate in.

uncommongroundmedia.com/deconstructing-the-good-transwomen/

Dr Julia Long
'A Meaningful Transition?'
May 12, 2020

If you can’t change your sex, why are the terms ‘transsexual’ and ‘transwoman’ lent credence among British gender critical feminists?

uncommongroundmedia.com/a-meaningful-transition-julia-long/

TinselAngel
'Which Side Are You On, Girls? The Role of Trans Widows in Feminism'
May 20, 2020

The inclusion of transsexuals in the women’s liberation movement means necessarily pushing out their former partners – the trans widows.

uncommongroundmedia.com/which-side-are-you-on-girls-trans-widows/

Dr Em
'Forced Teaming, Feminism, LGB and ‘Trans Rights’'
May 25, 2020

How the tactics of predators and manipulators, forced teaming, gaslighting, boundary violations and ignoring ‘no’, are used in the course of pushing ‘trans rights’.

uncommongroundmedia.com/forced-teaming-feminism-lgb-and-trans-rights/

Thank you I will have a look at those links when the kids have gone to bed.

Are you saying that we shouldn’t support even - for want of a better phrase - old-school transsexuals? (Sorry if I have misunderstood).

I’m really just thinking of people who are really suffering from gender dysphoria. They have my full sympathy.