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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Excellent letter on Freedom of speech to appear in Harper's Mag

150 replies

Imnobody4 · 07/07/2020 18:43

harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/
Signed by JKR, Margaret Atwood and Salman Rushdie among many others.
Are more people starting to say enough?

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6
Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/07/2020 11:38

They're apparently trying to cancel Orwell now, so I agree with Serenity.

SerenityNowwwww · 09/07/2020 11:39

I'm sure he would have been gutted...

DianasLasso · 09/07/2020 11:40

@Ereshkigalangcleg

They're apparently trying to cancel Orwell now, so I agree with Serenity.
But what will they use as an instruction manual if they do this?
Kantastic · 09/07/2020 11:48

It's wild that Deirdre McCloskey signed it, given their role in the hounding of Michael Bailey. They were one of the very earliest practitioners of the collective ostracism and online-organised mass abuse that we recognise as "cancel culture" today. If they've ever apologised for it I'm not aware.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170124/

But it's a good letter.

Kantastic · 09/07/2020 11:50

A friend of a friend, a 40-something mother of two, everyone supposedly "cis", posted on FB how the "hatred" posted by Rowling had her "throwing up most of the night and sobbing so hard she could not breathe"

It would be amusing to accuse her of "white women's tears" and tell her to decentre herself.

But I probably wouldn't, she sounds unstable, hopefully she'll get some of the hugs she's looking for.

SerenityNowwwww · 09/07/2020 11:52

Maybe it’s just a case of lockdown unhingeditus?

Abhannmor · 09/07/2020 12:24

White lefty men do indeed think cancel culture is a thing.Check out Mark Fisher , RIP. Here in Ireland we had the Cop on Comrades kerfuffle which is essentially a split between those who favour class politics on the one hand and the Identity politics crowd on the other . Although in fairness sex , race and so on do matter , it's like a dialogue of the deaf now.

NotBadConsidering · 09/07/2020 12:59

Those who are condemning this letter should ask themselves why a strategy to end genuine injustice is being applied to people who state facts. It’s the misuse of cancel culture that is the problem. There are two elements to its misuse: deliberate and inevitable.

It’s not wrong to call someone out for racism or similar. But people have seen the success that calling someone out for racism can have - shaming publicly, targeting employers, getting people fired - and have realised they can apply that strategy to anyone and anything who doesn’t agree with them if they do it cleverly. I think it’s deliberate. And I think people here will be able to recognise certain groups who see advantages in using those strategies.

But I also think it was inevitable. What is acceptable in public discourse changes and shifts. But the more you take an extreme action to solve a problem - even if it’s deserved - the more likely people will lose sight of what they’re doing in the frenzy and inevitably it will cross the line. People become so caught up with their sense of injustice that they can’t step back and see what they’re attacking might be something perfectly reasonable, or accurate: the fact there are only two sexes for example.

Because people are taking a sledgehammer to knock down a house, they think they can just keep using it to crack a peanut. The sledgehammer never gets put down, just goes from smashing one thing to another. I imagine it’s satisfying; smashing things like that can be. But at the end of the day they’re left standing on a pile of rubble and peanut shells and want to convince the rest of us it was all worth it.

And that leads me to my final point. Left wing parties have struggled to get elected because they don’t get the electorate. Labour lost the “Red Wall” because of stuff like this. Normal, regular people get fed up with it. They just will not get elected unless they accept that. If those in opposition and their supporters - certain columnists for example - keep lecturing people about how they’re supposed to support things like cancel culture and if they don’t they’re bad people, then those people will continue to shun them. They need to play the game, but they’re too busy sitting on their ideological high horse on the opposition benches. It might seem lofty from there, but it ain’t much bloody use is it?

Goosefoot · 09/07/2020 13:01

It's interesting to look at the thread in AIBU. A heck of a lot of people seem unaware about people being canceled.

I'm not sure why some people see this and others don't.

merrymouse · 09/07/2020 13:09

I'm not sure why some people see this and others don't.

"Cancel culture" is a very politicised term, but they probably don't know about the treatment of academics like Rosa Freedman and Katherine Stock, and they probably haven't read this article

www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/stop-firing-innocent/613615/

WomaninBoots · 09/07/2020 13:22

Strange thing on Facebook...

My DH shared this letter. It appeared in my newsfeed immediately after, I clicked it and liked it, but it has since vanished from my newsfeed... all my targetted ads are now LGBTQ+ focussed..

SerenityNowwwww · 09/07/2020 13:26

you are being re-educated Facebook-style!

WomaninBoots · 09/07/2020 13:46

Clearly. Grin Unfortunately I took some advice to "educate yourself" nearly 3 years ago... I did it 'wrong'. Then proceeded to educate the DH too.

SerenityNowwwww · 09/07/2020 14:24

You must be hanging with the wrong crowd.

AuntyFungal · 09/07/2020 14:57

New wave academia = check signatories first

New wave academia = no critical thinking required, just ‘likes’

SunsetBeetch · 10/07/2020 13:13

@WomaninBoots

Strange thing on Facebook...

My DH shared this letter. It appeared in my newsfeed immediately after, I clicked it and liked it, but it has since vanished from my newsfeed... all my targetted ads are now LGBTQ+ focussed..

Well that's sinister.
lionheart · 10/07/2020 21:12

Here is an interesting (brief) response to the furore the letter has supposedly caused.

leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2020/07/lawyer-wendy-kaminer-on-the-unhinged-responses-to-the-harpers-letter-about-cancel-culture.html

Siablue · 10/07/2020 21:26

Malcolm Gladwell said he signed it because people he disagreed with were signing it.

I wonder who wrote the letter and how they got people to sign it.

endofthelinefinally · 11/07/2020 08:33

I am over 60. Never had facebook. Never really understood the power of social media in general, fb and twitter in particular. Until I had the privilege of spending a few days in the company of someone who is working hard to help the survivors of the genocide in Burma.
That hate campaign was started entirely on fb. Look how it turned out. It is a very sobering thought.

Goosefoot · 11/07/2020 14:51

I thought it was interesting too that some of the back-peddlers said they really didn't give much thought to it, just seemed to think it was platitudes.

Who signs a public letter like that without reading it closely and thinking about it?

lionheart · 11/07/2020 16:29

That part i downright peculiar.

lionheart · 11/07/2020 16:29

*is

Ameanstreakamilewide · 14/07/2020 07:35

Saw this on Twitter this morning...can't say I'm surprised.

Excellent letter on Freedom of speech to appear in Harper's Mag
Ameanstreakamilewide · 14/07/2020 07:49

That's very fuzzy...it says.

Kennedy: Curious on your take of the aftermath of the Harper’s Letter. I’m surprised at how much controversy seems to surround it. Did you expect that result?

Chomsky: You’re seeing half of it. The other half is a stream of letters from left academics and activists relating their experiences but not wanting to be identified because of the toxic culture.

The nature and scale of the reaction reinforces the message of the letter.

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