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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Of all people....Margaret Atwood ‘we’re all part of a flowing bellcurve’

168 replies

BubblegumFactory · 07/07/2020 00:14

Can’t link to Twitter so I took a screenshot.
I’m kind of in shock.
Anyone else seen this?

Of all people....Margaret Atwood ‘we’re all part of a flowing bellcurve’
OP posts:
queenofknives · 07/07/2020 15:13

@Floisme

The Handmaid's Tale 2020

Offred: 'I'm a man!'
Commander: 'Oh OK.... Let her go.'
The End.

Hahahaha! Atwood seems pretty clueless tbh. I suspect that it's just fun for TRAs to try to troll us with it. And I do agree with the pp who said THT blames the second wave for all that happens. I agree that's a valid reading. Has anyone read The Testaments? It is interesting to think about from this perspective. I thought it was a really good book, actually.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/07/2020 15:23

The book will always stand alone as an excellent work IMO - a cautionary tale of what happens when women lose their rights (or rather, men take women's rights away!).

Yes I agree.

notassigned · 07/07/2020 15:26

Apologies if this has been posted but this is an interesting letter signed by both Atwood and Rowling as well as numerous others.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/07/2020 15:33

Thank you. Good on her for signing that, anyway.

SerenityNowwwww · 07/07/2020 15:33

However, Jacqueline Wilson is setting herself up for a world of abuse. I somehow think she is well aware and is ready for them.

MrGHardy · 07/07/2020 15:42

People think because humans all look different, simply are different, that this difference in phenotype means sex is a spectrum, backed up by the existence of intersex people. Sad appropriation. And by that logic we have 7+ billion sexes.

Goosefoot · 07/07/2020 15:51

Atwood has always been pretty clear about free speech stuff. The fact that she hasn't really clued in to how much suppression is going on in Canada is interesting.

stumbledin · 07/07/2020 16:08

I have always felt she doesn't like confrontation so in interviews and whatever will resort to the sort of oh dead I'm just a bit fuzzy and introverted writer. But with her childhood and her father's science background this seems a bit contrived. She cant seriously be doing this because she wants to be liked.

Also the disappointment for me is that her early book the Edible Woman which if anything made or confirmed I was a feminist was all about feminist erasure. ie a young woman trying to play the role of a gender conforming woman and realising she just couldn't.

And allowing that she could just have an amazing imagination I have always taken from that that she understood about women being made to conform by society.

I never followed her later books but wasn't troubled that she seemed to have gone off on some other journey as I felt that early book spoke about something essentially real rather than later speculative writing.

Although she always claimed that everything in the Handmaid's Tale was based on things that actually happened or were done to women.

Maybe as someone up thread has said, being primarily in the atmosphere of Canada's totally woke culture she has hit upon this old and dicredited article to explain to herself as much as anybody else why the woke culture is right.

Also disturbed to read about her support for the male academic. Some women who see themselves as equal to men dont want to accept the reality of men being predatory and women being the prey, because it would mean that they would have to accept that the men she assumes she her as equal in fact retain their patriarchal attitudes that she is lesser - for being biologically female.

stumbledin · 07/07/2020 16:16

And of course the MSM is lapping this up and saying MA has come out in support of trans rights eg www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/margaret-atwood-transgender-comments-twitter-jk-rowling-a9605546.html

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 07/07/2020 16:18

In reply to the comment about Atwood being slated for omitting trans women from The Handmaid's Tale, that's already happened:

www.advocate.com/commentary/2018/5/09/why-trans-woman-cant-identify-handmaids-tale

Thrillcheese · 07/07/2020 16:21

Seems appropriate, really -- we've entered the Gilead phase of Trans rights.

Quietlyloud · 07/07/2020 17:07

Of course trans women can’t identify with the show or book, it’s about biological abuse..

Melroses · 07/07/2020 17:40

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Ok. It's kind of depressing now. I feel it's a bit malicious, a bit 'lets cut the opposition down to size.' Ungenerous?

Yes I think she's basically trolling for attention on the back of this. Not many people are immune to the temptation of a bit of consequence-free virtue signalling.

yep - that is always how she has come across to me.

She has always come across in interviews as holding herself above any concept of feminism tbh.

ListeningQuietly · 07/07/2020 18:01

Just trying to get my head around the science of gender stuff

  • as a TRA FB friend told me to educate myself

Am I right in thinking that the chimeric evidence

  • that many people have the cells of their older siblings and mothers incorporated into their bodies -
is being used to pretend that XX and XY are not distinct

Surely people are not that scientifically illiterate ?

BentBastard · 07/07/2020 18:01

She is sounding like the Uber misogynistic "I'm not like the other girls" types. You know the ones who say they never really got on with girls because they're all bitchy and vaccinia. One of those.

ErrolTheDragon · 07/07/2020 18:09

Surely people are not that scientifically illiterate ?

Many people are, unfortunately- and it's particularly dangerous when the illiterates are clever with words.

ListeningQuietly · 07/07/2020 18:27

ErroltheDragon
I admit that realising that TRAs are confusing Chimeras with Chromosones was a bit of a lightbulb for me this afternoon.

It explains to me why such people link me to articles (that are usually behind paywalls and the abstract is vague)
saying they show that modern ideas of sex are different

but if they are just confusing chimeric attributes then their misunderstanding is much easier to refute

the literature on chimerics is fascinating
I got lost in Wikipedia for several days when I started reading
and desperately warrants a ton of research

but in no way at all does it undermine the fundamentals of XX and XY

Delphinium20 · 07/07/2020 19:35

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

In reply to the comment about Atwood being slated for omitting trans women from The Handmaid's Tale, that's already happened:

www.advocate.com/commentary/2018/5/09/why-trans-woman-cant-identify-handmaids-tale

ME, me, me, me, me, me, me...sayeth the author who feels like a story about the oppression of women due solely to their biology didn't have a special storyline for a man.
BettyFilous · 07/07/2020 21:17

@Goosefoot

I think the people in her books are weirdly soulless and disturbing. I made a good effort to read a bunch and some were required in school as part of CanLit, but I gave up in the end because they made me feel depressed.
I agree. In my book group we admire her writing but are in broad agreement that we wouldn’t want to spend time with her in real life.

I couldn’t go on reading that thread. The stupidity made my head hurt. For the person who said upthread that TRAs will probably go after her for not having trans people in Handmaid’s Tale, one tweeter says they were there - but were either executed or they passed. SMH.

Durgasarrow · 07/07/2020 21:41

I'm confused about something--on Twitter, Atwood says that the fertile women who were used to make babies "In the novel, they had to be: divorced (Gilead doesn't allow divorce) +fertile. Or "immoral."(Though these might be Jezebels.) Women married only once would be Wives (high status) or Econowives. Some could choose celibacy+ be Aunts or Marthas." But wasn't Offred married? I thought she and her husband were trying to flee together and didn't succeed.

BubblegumFactory · 07/07/2020 21:44

Twitter has an awful lot of threads that make my head hurt, and I’ve only popped over there recently.
At first I found it full of interesting debate but actually it’s just full of people in echo chambers shouting at anyone who disagrees.
Much prefer it over here; just wish I knew more and was as eloquent as most of you on this board.

OP posts:
BubblegumFactory · 07/07/2020 21:47

Also, I read THMT when I was a teenager in the 80’s so have very probably been looking at it through rose-tinted spectacles.

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TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 07/07/2020 21:52

Offred’s husband had been married before and Gilead didn’t recognise divorce so by their rules that made them both adulterers and their marriage invalid.

shivermetimbers77 · 07/07/2020 21:53

@Durgasarrow Offred’s husband was married to someone else when they got together (Well, in the tv series anyway).. so she was viewed as a homebreaker

transdimensional · 07/07/2020 21:56

@notassigned

Apologies if this has been posted but this is an interesting letter signed by both Atwood and Rowling as well as numerous others.
Thank you, very interesting and worth while letter defending free speech, press and debate. Interesting mix of signatures ranging from conservative through to hard-left.