Cross dressers included in the definition of Transgender

[Dances]

Was reading though old threads and came across this.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3401111-Crossdressers-included-in-the-definition-of-Transgender?pg=1

I think the issues covered here are STILL not generally understood. Many of the lobby groups have actively campaigned for cross dressers to be included in the definition of transgender. As Lang points out, cross dressing the the most common paraphilia in sex offenders. There is a reference in the thread.

This still shocks the fuck out of me. Why is this not commonly known? These lobby groups actually have written it down IN GOVERNMENT SUBMISSIONS.

How long will it take for this to be common knowledge? Honestly, it's a scandal

I'm pretty sure Women Make Glasgow got Glasgow Life to retract their policy which granted cross dressers access to female changing rooms. It's such a clear cut example of how these 'inclusive' policies are detrimental to the safety, privacy & dignity of women & girls. A man can specially choose to 'cross dress' to access female only services/spaces/support & these orgs advocate for this.

OP, the problem is our media. They all give the impression, that everyone who identifies as the opposite gender, goes through a long and incredibly painful process, involving complicated medical procedures and lots of money,
The truth is very different, only around 10% have any medical treatment, but the general public do not realise this.

data.parliament.uk/WrittenEvidence/CommitteeEvidence.svc/EvidenceDocument/Women%20and%20Equalities/Transgender%20Equality/written/19659.html

This is the submission from Scorrish Transgender Alliance / Equality Network, to the UK Government, where they clearly state that cross dressers are included in transgender. The other submissions to this commission agree with this definition, including LGBT Youth Scotland, who go into schools and teach kids about this.

They also say they want to remove the exemptions to single sex spaces. It's there, right there, in black and white.

Cross dressers? FFS!

Dances,

It defies belief doesn't it.
How many ordinary people would be OK with this and as you said, how many people are even aware of it?

So, "woman" is an identity a man can put on and off with a dress after all, and doesn't have to be an innate feeling or conviction? I thought it was transphobic if someone thought or said that?

I'm confused now. Is it my eyes or have the goalposts gone a bit fluid? Are there people out there having their cake, freezing it, eating it and tucking some up the leg of their knickers too, like we used to stow our hankies on gym lessons?!

Most ppl haven’t the faintest idea. They still think we’re talking about old school transsexuals

I've said before, I'd rather have clearly mixed sex/ unisex changing rooms/toilets than this. At least then the issues would be quickly apparent.

I've said before, I'd rather have clearly mixed sex/ unisex changing rooms/toilets than this. At least then the issues would be quickly apparent.

We could bring a man who we know and trust in with us as backup then, too.

Honestly it's just ridiculous. There is nothing about liking to wear skirts while in possession of a penis that prevents said person from trying their skirts on in the men's changing room, and a naked crossdresser is just a man like any other man. My dad likes to wear a kilt to weddings and other formal events, will he be allowed to go into women's changing rooms too soon? Not that he'd want to, but still, a kilt is just a heavy woolen skirt in the end.

Are ladies who wear jeans and hoodies cross-dressers / trans ?
Are ladies with buzz cuts who eschew makeup trans ?

@ScrimpshawTheSecond

I've said before, I'd rather have clearly mixed sex/ unisex changing rooms/toilets than this. At least then the issues would be quickly apparent.

When all that kicked off with Glasgow Life last year I wanted to go round as many of the museums, leisure centres etc etc that GL were responsible for and change all the signs on the toilets and changing room doors to unisex to try and show people what was actually happening by the back door.

At least it would be honest and folk would know that if for eg their daughter is on a school trip to the Transport Museum and needs to use the toilet she may be sharing those facilities with adult males despite the sign on the door showing female...

A million years ago Candid Camera changed the signs on all the toilets at Disneyland to
"us" and "them"
and then set up cameras

worth watching if you can find it

It actually doesn't matter. If you read the Stonewall definition of trans:

www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/faqs-and-glossary/glossary-terms#t

you'll see that it isn't that a crossdresser is trans, it's that a crossdresser is trans if they consider themself to be trans. The key understanding is that these days anyone can be trans, so long as they subscribe to the gender identity ideology. Anything else, presentation, behaviours, medical treatments, bodily modifications, etc are irrelevant. It's an issue of belief now, nothing more.

Actually I got that wrong, if this became public knowledge and the public stopped and thought about what this means to women and their single-sex spaces, then it could well matter.

Yes, my DH has only just "got it" after I explained that trans these days includes transvestites, cross dressers and any man who says they are.

He's on his way to the summit...

Where are the journalists now?

Haven't read the full thread but further to the OP, the guy they now suspect of killing Madeline McCann - and who is implicated in dozens of child rapes/murders (and is currently in prison for such) - when police raided his home, among his stash of pedophiliac child abuse photos they found pictures of him dressed in women's underwear.

It's always the same fucking story isn't it.

apparently you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans either - which I am confused about because I thought that was the essence of being trans - the dysphoria caused when you feel like your 'gender' doesn't match your sex?

No dysphoria required now

This is also mentioned in the Scot Govt Equality Impact Assessment

'The majority of organisations that responded were of the view that the terms ‘transvestite’ and ‘transsexual’ were outdated and should be removed from hate crime legislation. Those groups, including those representing the LGBT community, generally favoured the terms ‘trans’ and/or ‘transgender’ as umbrella terms covering a range of sub-groups. Within their consultation response, the Equality Network defined transgender as ‘people who find their gender identity or gender expression differs from the gender they were assigned at birth. This includes, among other identities, non-binary people, transwomen, transmen and cross-dressing people’ '

and

'In regards to transgender, participants agreed that the term ‘transvestite’ should no longer be used in legislation as it is outdated. It was agreed that transgender identity should be used as an umbrella to term to include transsexual, non-binary. The following terms were also suggested:

Gender expression/performance
Drag performance artists and cross dressing '

www.gov.scot/publications/hate-crime-public-order-scotland-bill-equality-impact-assessment/pages/3/

"the gender they were assigned at birth" ...do they mean "the sex they were identified as at birth"?
They have really befuddled everyone with their language manipulation haven't they?

What I mean is, the definition is founded on something that just doesn't happen. No one writes down your gender at birth, just like no one says you are heterosexual or that you like collecting stamps. It's sex, it's irrefutable. I still can't get my head around why these guys don't just fight gender stereotypes like feminists instead of reinforcing them by saying cross dressers are women, when the thrill for many cross dressing men is the taboo of being a man and dressing as a woman. Am I missing something here??

I was so, so disappointed when I realised that Eddie Izzard - who I had previously respected for stating, when asked why he wore women's clothes, that "they're not women's clothes, they're my clothes" - has now decided that in fact he's trans.

've said before, I'd rather have clearly mixed sex/ unisex changing rooms/toilets than this. At least then the issues would be quickly apparent.

Absolutely right. This debate would benefit so much from better levels of honesty.

It would be better for people to say they believe there shouldn't be any women only spaces full stop rather than all these silly contortions.

Cross dressers are included in the definition of trans identity in the new Scottish Hate Crimes Bill. There’s a carve out from the hate crime offences to ensure that legitimate debate in relation to homosexuality and religion is not caught/illegal but there’s no carve out for transgender identity. Therefore by implication querying an individual‘s trans identity becomes potentially criminal.

"the Equality Network defined transgender as ‘people who find their gender identity or gender expression differs from the gender they were assigned at birth"

Quick Google for gender expression gets me this from Wikipedia:
"Gender expression is a person's behavior, mannerisms, interests, and appearance that are associated with gender in a particular cultural context, specifically with the categories of femininity or masculinity."

On any given day I am extremely unlikely to be wearing any item of clothing sold as being for women apart from my bra (which is an unfortunate necessity). I prefer men's shoes because they're wider and flatter, men's socks because they're less restricting and come in better colours, men's trousers and jeans because I have narrow hips, men's briefs because I find the fabric, seams and cut more comfortable, men's t-shirts because I don't like the fitted feel of women's shirts, a men's hoodie for the same reason, men's coats because they're thicker and better quality for the same price with pockets that are actually pockets, and if I wear a hat it'll be a men's hat because I have a massive head. I don't wear makeup because I don't like the way it feels and looks on me and can't be bothered. Except in lockdown, I have a short back and sides because it's easier to care for. I don't sit with my legs together because I see no point in permanently tensing my thigh muscles for the sake of random people's opinions. I like technology. By my local cultural standards my "gender expression" is overall probably masculine. My "gender assigned at birth" would, presumably, be the one associated with my female sex.

So by the definition above — AFAB, masculine gender expression — I'm trans, whether I like it or not.

Fuck off.